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 daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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 Re: libertarian roll call  [Re: Redstorm]
#4684240 - 09/19/05 09:47 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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You think that's high falutin, read this and this.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: daimyo]
#4684247 - 09/19/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I just opened it, and I think my brain is bleeding already.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684264 - 09/19/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Laissez-faire Capitalist here. If I were an American citizen I would vote Libertarian, as they are the political party closest to my own beliefs.
I agree with the previous posters who note the soft spot of the US Libertarian party is foreign policy, but it's not a disastrously soft spot. No party platform is perfect and no party platform is going to satisfy everyone.
I can partially understand Paradigm's enthusiasm for using Georgist land-leasing principles as a way to fund legitimate government functions, but it is still too re-distributionist for my taste. For example, it is far too easy for some poor shmoe living in his little house on his little farm minding his own business to end up being forced off his land because he can't afford to pay his land tax when urban sprawl (over which he has exactly zero control) raises the value of his land. Under Georgism, you see, it isn't really his land. It's The Collective's land and he just gets to occupy it -- as long as he can cough up the ever-increasing tax assesment.
But that's for a different thread.
Phred
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Worf
Lt. Commander
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 15,663
Loc: Final Frontier
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Silversoul]
#4684267 - 09/19/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about the Awesome party of Ninjas, Robots, and Pirates?
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Kira: What do Klingons dream about?
Worf: Things that would send cold chills down your spine, and wake you up in the middle of the night. No, it is better you do not know
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nonick
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Worf]
#4684471 - 09/19/05 10:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah, this georgism stuff doesn't make any sense. there is no philosophical difference between land, water, air, computers, animals(humans excepted, due to our ability to reason), cars, or newspapers. anything that isn't human can be, nay!, i say MUST owned by individuals - if we are to sustain life on this planet. but really that discussion should be put into another thread.
-nonick
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 Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684478 - 09/19/05 10:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree, except humans can be included under the right circumstances. Our ability to reason doesn't make us any less valuable to be exploited.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684500 - 09/19/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
yeah, this georgism stuff doesn't make any sense. there is no philosophical difference between land, water, air, computers, animals(humans excepted, due to our ability to reason), cars, or newspapers.
Who produces the land, water, or air? What labor has gone into manufacturing these things which would entitle one to exclusive profit from them?
Quote:
anything that isn't human can be, nay!, i say MUST owned by individuals - if we are to sustain life on this planet. but really that discussion should be put into another thread.
Georgism does not oppose the private ownership of land. It opposes the private collection of land rent(meaning the profit from land value).
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Silversoul]
#4684506 - 09/19/05 10:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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How does one profit from land value if they are not utilizing it for some purpose?
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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Silversoul]
#4684522 - 09/19/05 10:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Who produces the land, water, or air?
god
Quote:
Paradigm said:
What labor has gone into manufacturing these things
That is a question far above your pay grade.
Quote:
Paradigm said:
which would entitle one to exclusive profit from them?
His followers are entitled to any benefit possible.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: looner2]
#4684534 - 09/19/05 10:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
How does one profit from land value if they are not utilizing it for some purpose?
Land value is quite independent of the owner. It rises as a result of such factors as population growth, government investment in infrastructure, and environmental or social factors. Essentially, it is a socially created value, not a privately created one like income from labor. This is why the real estate market is so huge. Investors buy up properties and make a fortune off rising land values without lifting a finger.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Silversoul]
#4684559 - 09/19/05 10:45 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Anyway, so as not to further derail this thread, I'd prefer that any further questions or comments on Georgism be directed here.
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nonick
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684620 - 09/19/05 10:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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land value is determined by the owner...just as the value of anything else is determined! the most fundamental right is the right to life. and to stay alive, some might find it wise to own and preserve land that is used for farming so they can eat! when something is so important for my life that i choose to, and am successfully able to defend it from being used by other people, you better bet that i own that resource. land is easy to own...with fences, 911, and sometimes guns. the air is a bit harder to fence in, on the other hand. althought, if i could practically bottle up enough air for the rest of my life, and preserve it for myself...i really wouldn't care what the rest of the people did with theirs. the problem is that i CANT fence off my air, so i am in danger of being harmed by others who have the ability to pollute what is rightfully mine. this is why the government needs to install a system in which pollutors are punished, instead of allowed to sell pollution credits to their friends.
-nonick
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684644 - 09/19/05 11:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am a classical liberal who understands the concept of natural rights (as one of identification involving certain parameters of human interaction - but not relying on a religious or hyper-theoretical justification), and believes that taken to it's logical conclusion it should be extended to questions of the earth, water and sky. Hence I see pollution as a violation of natural rights, a trespass on the indivisible realm of nature which all humans have a birth right to. Thinking along these lines, I also see merit in the ideas contained in Thomas Paine's 'Agrarian Justice' and Georgism as a means for funding government and ensuring that those benefiting from legal monopolies upon nature give their fellow man his just dues (but I have doubts about practical implementation, given our current state of society and traditions).
I see the non-aggression principle as a guiding axiom which all public policy should be examined in light of. This is not to say that it is always the best first solution to current problems affecting homo-sapiens, but that it is an ideal worth striving towards as much as humanly and practically possible.
I fully embrace the concept of minority rights taken to it's logical conclusion of respect for the minority of one - the individual. If you fully respect all individuals, regardless of any classifications they may fall under, all other larger classifications benefit from the same respect. Any pigeon holing into and elevation of specific groups such as black, homosexual, female, etc., is in fact discriminatory against any individual who may not be recognized as being part of any currently favored grouping.
Lastly (at least for the moment) I think that the Libertarian party is deficient in concepts of practical application of it's ideals in that they give short shrift to negative consequences of immediate implementation and how these may adversely effect people who have difficulty adjusting, leading to a counter-revolutionary abandonment of the philosophy of freedom (should it ever have a chance in the first place). In other words, they often shoot themselves in the foot with a sort of freedom machismo that turns many people off. As a practical matter, certain ideas should have priority and necessarily be implemented before others can be successfully implemented.
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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.
You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684654 - 09/19/05 11:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wrong thread. Paradigm has provided a link to a thread on Georgism. I bumped it to put it right underneath this thread. Let's move the discussion there, shall we?
Phred
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684676 - 09/19/05 11:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
land value is determined by the owner...
A fundamental error made by those who do not understand economics. Value is determined by supply and demand; in other words, by the market, which encompasses far more than any individual owner. But who makes the land? Certainly no human does. The supply is a fixed quantity -- no one is making any more of it. The demand side does not consist of the owners, but rather those who would like to own the land(to put it in simple terms). Now, as I said, please direct any further comments to the thread I linked to.
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MagicalMystery
turn off yourmind
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684820 - 09/19/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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im str8 reppasentin libertarianism 4 lyfe
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 "Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest." From the Declaration of the Continental Congress "We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood." Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939 "We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children." David Lane
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4684839 - 09/19/05 11:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
i don't mean who is in the libertarian party, just if you understand the principles of freedom.
I am a reluctant member of the libertarian party.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Lazlow
Sorcerer's Apprentice
Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 41
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: nonick]
#4685057 - 09/20/05 01:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I identify with many libertarian ideals, though I've never voted libertarian except for a few local offices.
I think the problem is the same for any fringe-party, and it's the opposite problem of the big parties. The big two parties throw out any candidate who has any hint of a "non-mainstream" view, whereas the small parties end up selecting not for acceptability but for the ability to gain passionate support of a small percentage of people.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: libertarian roll call [Re: Redstorm]
#4685333 - 09/20/05 05:42 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
I just opened it, and I think my brain is bleeding already.
Let the contribution of property i to the value of property j be Eij. Let the full value of property i be Vi and the site value Si. Let its net windfall be Wi. Then:
Vi = Sum{Eij, all j}
Si = Sum{Eij, all j not equal to i} = Vi - Eii
Wi = Si - Sum{Eji, all j not equal to i} = Sum{(Eij - Eji), all j not equal to i} = Sum{(Eij - Eji), all j}
Sum{Wi, all i} = Sum{Sum{(Eij - Eji), all i} , all j} = 0
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