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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Pre-Adamic Race on earth???
    #468427 - 11/24/01 02:29 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468470 - 11/24/01 03:48 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Is impossible to get into any discussion on this board without bringing in aliens - but you know that.

Read up on evolution. We were theoretically preceded by several proto-human species.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Swami]
    #468510 - 11/24/01 04:35 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468561 - 11/24/01 05:44 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

at the risk of going off track a bit, i'd just like to say that although evolution hasn't necessarily been proven true, the evidence we have weighs highly in its favor. also, you are christian, i believe.. a few years ago pope john paul ii reconciled the church's views with science and accepted evolution as being able to co-exist with the theory of creation. they also changed the definition of hell to "the state of being of those who are away from god"..

as for 'intelligent' races existing before humans, as swami said there were other humanoid species, like the neanderthals, evolving around the same time as homo sapiens but i believe we beat the shit out of them or something in the course of our evolution. i think it is possible that perhaps a species as or more intelligent than us existed a long, long, time ago and maybe there was a huge disaster that wiped away all traces of them... maybe.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Amoeba665]
    #468578 - 11/24/01 06:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Watch "2001" if you want to see a visual referance of humanities first victory. (beat down those less smart...)


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Amoeba665]
    #468659 - 11/24/01 08:10 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468703 - 11/24/01 09:33 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Nah, I don't wanna flame your beliefs. Why should I? About the adam and eve question. That's a good question. Here's one you gotta know... if we found adam and eve frozen perfectly in a block of ice how could we know for sure it was them? ... They would not have belly-buttons, that is to say, they would have had to have been created not from umblical cords and a womb and a mother and father.

Actually in science there IS an Eve. She is known as the Mitochondria Eve by descent of genes (somehow the rigorous tests and genious of science has good evidence this way, I'm not a genetic biologist so I can't explain it). This is an Eve derived by tracing backwards in time.

Actually science is quite convinced (at least the upper eschelon scientists) that all humanity came from a single tribe (or family in Biblical terms) and not from "popping up" all over the world.

So you are not wrongly pursuing the truth. The Biblical terminology is the basis of the thruth about adam and eve. (It goes deeper than this as you know how the Bible has so many layers of depth of wisdom to it).

I hope that supports your ideas more than anything else. :smile:


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #468724 - 11/24/01 10:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineFelstorm
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #468782 - 11/24/01 11:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Read the _Lost Book of Enki_ by Zechariah Sitchin.

It was published not to long ago... Simply an astounding Find.

There are over 4000 errors in the Human genetic code. Why?

Our "closest" relatives in the animal kingdom are Chimps. They have no errors in thier genetic code. not one.

How does one explain the UFO phenomenon?

Why does the Pope contradict The Biblical Story of Creation by stating that Evolution is Compatable with Creation?

Is there something they know that we do not?

There are others like us in the universe. They are already here, and have been for thousands of years. The real question is how do we deal with thier presence? Or rather. How will they deal with us?

How would they look upon us as a race?

I think we as a human race should stop acting like grabby little apes and start to deal with the fact that we are not alone. I for one would be concerned about human internecine war spreading to the void. On this planet there are no other beings that behave as we do. Animals fight and kill to survive and eat. We kill our own species out of selfish interest, and imagined reality.




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To do a thing and know no better is ignorance.
It is an act of kindness to educate the ignorant.
To do a wrong thing intentionally, is evil and wicked.





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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #468801 - 11/24/01 11:35 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468808 - 11/24/01 11:50 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

They've found more than one neanderthal, enter, tho granted they all had to be "interpreted" by someone -- Occams Razor rears it's ugly visage here, cause cataloging morphological differences within/between a species is a better way of finding its true designation than saying "erm, perhaps we just caught Ms. Flintstone on a bad day..."

...and the earlier human ancestors are unmistakebly "inhuman" but they're just as clearly not run-of-the-mill apes, either...

I've always wondered how christians feel about other aspects of evolution -- antibiotic-resistant bacteria, plant evolution etc? Is it the mechanism of evolution that they object to, or the idea that human consciousness could arise gradually(note the care I take not to say "accidentally" ;) ), without the direct intervention of God?

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Pynchon]
    #468827 - 11/25/01 12:12 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineFelstorm
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468841 - 11/25/01 12:25 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

*cough* mindcontrol *cough*


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To do a thing and know no better is ignorance.
It is an act of kindness to educate the ignorant.
To do a wrong thing intentionally, is evil and wicked.





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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Felstorm]
    #468860 - 11/25/01 12:52 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

heh heh, I'm pretty sure we did evolve... some way or another. I find it interesting that the Pope has decided that science and religion can fit together, and that he has accepted and seemingly embraced the evolution theory. I don't think either one rules the other out...
It is said that there is a secret held by the Church, and that only a few know about it. There are in fact many secrets, but apparently there is one in particular that the Pope has vowed to never reveal. I think this sucks, and I want to know what the hell it is. What's he tryin to prove anyhow? If he knows something, but he ain't sharin it, how am I supposed to believe in the rest of this stuff? Well, whatever. Lying bastard. (This secret would supposedly devestate the Christian community... So, knowing that, why the hell would anyone have faith in this guy?) I want answers.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468874 - 11/25/01 01:11 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468886 - 11/25/01 01:25 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Christian, Catholic, I have no idea... Whatever. The fact remains that he's hiding something (apparently).
And about the 6-day creation deal, I think this is one hugely misunderstood story of some sort.
You say that the evolution theory negates the creation theory, because of the time frames involved... And then you go ahead and side with the creation theory, despite there being actual proof of the evolution theory (if not in man, though I'm sure there is, then in most every other creature on this planet).
I'm not trying to insult your beliefs, I just think that the conventional creation theory is probably wrong. Unless 6 God days equals 25 billion earth years or something...
These are the facts: The bible doesn't document people as sharing the planet with one celled organisms and crap until they all evolved. Nor does the bible document people living alongside dinosaurs... So if we were created by God, it was a long ways into the earths life. (Perhaps he started out small?) I think the birth of humans and the birth of God coincide quite nicely, and maybe that's why he worships us. We made him... Who's your daddy God? That's right... heh heh.
If you look at some of Jesus' writings from this mindset, you can see quite clearly that the Genesis things is a little askew... Or misunderstood. How much of that book is literal anyhow? (actually, I don't know.)


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468892 - 11/25/01 01:32 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

To put this more clearly, where do you think the dinosaurs came from? Unless the government planted the bones so that we could have this very discussion, they were obviously here long before us, and there were things here long before them. So, unless God created them, than screwed around for a few eons, then wiped them out, and made some other stuff, screwed around a little more... Eventually deciding to make people (and doing a very interesting job of it no less. Why do we have some of the worst eyes on the planet, the worst sense of smell... I wanna know that God. Why you wanna keep a brotha down? Why give a measly eagle eyes that are, oh, I don't remember how many times better than ours, if we're created in your image... You got glaucoma or something? Maybe you got a stick in the eye during a heavenly polo game?)


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Edited by Ulysees (11/25/01 01:36 AM)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468893 - 11/25/01 01:32 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468904 - 11/25/01 01:42 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

It wasn't meant to be condescending. These are some simple facts, facts that I have to consider when I make my decisions. I'm just wondering if you've considered them, and how you've worked them into your beliefs.
I'm certainly not going to get into a fist fight over the internet. Especially not about something like this, as how Godly would that be of me? (I gotta represent you know, I was created in my masters image.) ;)

What if I'm wrong? I don't deny that it's a possibility. I don't have all the answers, and I don't claim that I'm surely right, but I have said some things that you may or may not be able to ignore. The path to enlightenment is through learning, not just stopping when you've finished the bible.

My thoughts will continue to evolve, and if I settle on Creationism, so be it. I don't find it likely though.
You have to take in all the information you can get, and mix it up a little. ;) No one source will ever have all the answers, even if that source claims to be fed by God. (Of course I can't deny the possibility that I am wrong even in this thought.)


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468905 - 11/25/01 01:44 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Umm, to clarify that further:
You've got to constantly challenge your ideals and your beliefs. If you don't, you aren't learning anything are you?


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468911 - 11/25/01 01:49 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468990 - 11/25/01 03:59 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

ooo sorry for the tardy reply - I've been bouncing around a couple other forums, websites, searchengines, etc.

The Mitochondria Eve as you can see from the definition has genetic code in it. This code has been traced backwards in time through females only. I know it has been done, but I don't know how. Neway they found anscenstral remains (grave diggin' robbers IMHO) of Mitochondia Eve with genes that trace to every female's mitochondria today.

Now I'm not gonna call her Biblical Eve by any means at all. But it shows WE all came from ONE orginal family. No wonder the Bible teaches this. I believe my Bible (SRV), btw - yet my interpretations have transformed over the years.

When I read your beliefs let me quote scripture to you: JOHN 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe" - "him" above was Thomas who wouldn't believe Jesus was resurected until he saw his wounds and that he was alive.

Typical stance for many, eh? Gotta have proof first - and this lesson is in the scriptures about a disciple! Go figure...

~1/0 - Defender Of The Faith~


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/25/01 04:09 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #468996 - 11/25/01 04:21 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"Typical stance for many, eh? Gotta have proof first - and this lesson is in the scriptures about a disciple! Go figure..."

Actually, I think our society is a little too good at accepting things without proof... If I accepted things without proof, without questioning them, even the most rudimentary things, I wouldn't be here my friend. I'd be on the other side of the barricades. We're all open-minded to a degree it seems, for some it ends here, with the acceptance of drugs (for whatever reason). Some of us take it further... You can't have too much of a good thing. ;) Besides, why would you want to limit yourself to one religion? Where's the fun in that? Got to look at all the possibilities...

One can simply accept Jesus, and be another believer, which is fine. Or, one can attempt to be *like* Jesus, by continually seeking...

Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

One of my favorites.


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Edited by Ulysees (11/25/01 04:31 AM)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469001 - 11/25/01 04:36 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

:laugh: uuuuuuuuuuh ok i accept your statement uuuuuuuuuuh :laugh:

Back to evolution. As I was taught in Honor's College Biology, evolution is more of a classification system than anything else. It's useful Today in this way. One of the excercises we did in class was break into about 6 groups of 3 peeps and come up with our own classification scheme for a series of fictiional organisms. Every single group had a completely different scheme.

Just look at modern mycology. Classifying mushrooms is rediculously complex.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469003 - 11/25/01 04:46 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

ok... It's complex, but we think the human DNA strand is complex today. Yesterday it was mind boggling. Tomorrow we might be modifying it. I don't really know where I'm going, but even though evolution theories aren't spotless, doesn't mean that evolution doesn't exist in some form... Mycology classification is tough, but we know that mushrooms are in fact different.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469006 - 11/25/01 05:05 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Ooops I think you can type faster than me. One thing I very much take into consideration when talking about religion and scriptures (I earnestly study Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, and Shamanism too) is to consider who I'm talking to and how they use language.

In Zen we say, "at first I saw mountains as mountains, then I did not see them as mountains anymore. Now that many years have passed I see mountains as mountains again"

So here talking to enter I don't see any reason to twist his brain around in crazy circles to proove I'm right. He's right to believe what's right for him. And, he IS seeking just by taking the onslaughts of challenges here. I respect that. I could tell him some people find the meaning of god in a mushroom, but he finds the meaning of god in his own way. Fair is fair. At least he's a spiritual person in a spirtuality forum, eh?

In California we say, "I may not agree with you, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it" - freedom of speech, not oppression by speech.


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/25/01 05:07 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469011 - 11/25/01 05:37 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

What you talking bout? Am I being oppressive? If so, I apologize. I'm actually a very spiritual person as well, although I reconcile that with some things I like to call "un-ignorable facts". These facts, though definately not concrete, are in fact un-ignorable.
To have a discussion about such things without consulting these un-ignorable facts is like playing cards without a full deck, if you catch my drift. I have a hard time going through a discussion without bringing them up...
So, I'm not trying to twist anyones brain around in crazy circles to prove that I'm right, I'm just showing the rest of the deck... (IMO anyway)

In this vein, I think that enter is wrong (in the sense that I don't think he's seeing enough of the picture... though it may not be the real picture, or the only picture...). I'll admit that, though I wouldn't attempt to push that past opinion. I also wouldn't say I am right... Nor would I say that my view is better, but different, and for me the only acceptable path to walk at this time. SO, if you can see past the first statement (about enter being wrong) you might understand my very flexible belief system. Hell, I'm confused right now.

If you're going to study numerous religions and theories, you're going to have to believe that nothing you are studying is wrong, but everything that you are studying may not be right. This isn't some mind-screw, this is just how you have to operate when you're opening so many doors, and accepting so many contradictions.

And btw- I don't know if I type faster than you, my night is just slower than yours. ;)


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Edited by Ulysees (11/25/01 05:43 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469019 - 11/25/01 06:24 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

1/0, you are obviously an intelligent person who has considered these things in detail. I'm not posting the following to be an ass, but I want to know what you think of them.
These are some of the things I have written earlier in this thread, they may seem arrogant, especially when isolated like this, but I digress.

I'm pretty sure we did evolve... some way or another. I find it interesting that the Pope has decided that science and religion can fit together, and that he has accepted and seemingly embraced the evolution theory. I don't think either one rules the other out...

I'm not trying to insult your beliefs, I just think that the conventional creation theory is probably wrong. Unless 6 God days equals 25 billion earth years or something...
These are the facts: The bible doesn't document people as sharing the planet with one celled organisms and crap until they all evolved. Nor does the bible document people living alongside dinosaurs... So if we were created by God, it was a long ways into the earths life. (Perhaps he started out small?) I think the birth of humans and the birth of God coincide quite nicely, and maybe that's why he worships us. We made him... Who's your daddy God? That's right... heh heh.

To put this more clearly, where do you think the dinosaurs came from? Unless the government planted the bones so that we could have this very discussion, they were obviously here long before us, and there were things here long before them. So, unless God created them, than screwed around for a few eons, then wiped them out, and made some other stuff, screwed around a little more... Eventually deciding to make people (and doing a very interesting job of it no less. Why do we have some of the worst eyes on the planet, the worst sense of smell... I wanna know that God. Why you wanna keep a brotha down? Why give a measly eagle eyes that are, oh, I don't remember how many times better than ours, if we're created in your image... You got glaucoma or something? Maybe you got a stick in the eye during a heavenly polo game?)

------- Alright, some of that sounds very bad... heh heh. I meant no offence to God, as I believe there is in fact some God.
Notice I said way up there "I don't think that either rules the other out." in referance to creationism and evolution, as I in fact have found a balance between the two, at least for the time being.
Still, what of it? How can you explain the dinosaurs and the things that preceeded them yada yada. (which may of course be horribly misrepresented, though I doubt it's that far off...) I'm not trying to be an ass here either, I want to know your opinion. If you told me something that made me believe that the conventional creationism theory is in fact true, then I'd gladly accept it. Honestly. I have no predisposition towards any one theory, this is just where I have ended up for the time being, but as I've said, I'm still seeking.

I'm in this to learn too, not just disrupt peoples beliefs.

Oh ya, something I've been thinking about: Though God didn't invent the Earth and the Sun and the cosmos (IMO), I think that he may have had something to do with consciousness. Could Genesis be a metaphor for that? You might not think so, and I don't know. It may be myth or something similar, remember all the other people that have believed so faithfully in things? Most of us now think they were ignorant, and we may face the same future ourselves. Still, I do believe that there is something... I think that we ARE God, or that consciousness and knowledge is God, and that the whole grand story of Genesis is in fact a metephor of sorts, a myth if you will, but all myths are born of consciousness, and so all myths are God... In the realm beyond the physical plane that we know, there exists one more akin to thought... (sort of) Is this heaven? I don't know, but what's in a name anyhow? God, evolution, creationism, these are all very primitive forms of explaing things. The fact is that we are HERE. We are ALIVE, and that is proof enough that whatever you feel like calling it is real. So in this sense, nobody is wrong... some may just be more surprised than others. ;)
Well, I'm rambling, I hope I've said something interesting, but that is a picture of the constantly evolving yet tangled web yet simple vision that is my belief. :)

Oh crap, I had one more thought, this is the last one I promise.
You and I know, through study of shamanic healing and rituals, the power of consciousness, and that which is beyond. Correct? I have a tendancy to believe that Jesus Christ was in fact a Shaman of sorts. I think that some of his accomplishments were not miracles in the way that most see them, but skills of consciousness. I will track down some of the more interesting quotes and things I have come across.
Maybe you can somehow apply these further ramblings to the above.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469028 - 11/25/01 07:12 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Theory of evolution may have some holes I agree, but with all the evidence that we have is the best explanation that we have to date, as for creationist theory I am sorry but is kind of childish to me, that was the best explanation that they came up back in the past.
And I don't understand why people will hold on to stories that were written 3 or 4 thousand years ago, and hold it as true.
I was raced a catholic, I went to catholic school, but they always thought us in biology theory of evolution, is only here in the US that people go so crazy with this creationist theory.
No offence intended, but Christians should no try to impose their beliefs on others, if not you will become like the taliban.
Religion belief is a personal thing, if you don't want to believe in science so be it but don't try to stop it.
Again I hope no one got offended, Is just my personal opinion.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469059 - 11/25/01 08:13 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

hey man, actually I DO know what your talking about. You asked if Genesis was a metaphor? Yup. Once three of us, friends, got into decoding GENESIS 1:1-5 within which we spent a total of 20 hours work. We used a dictionary and the thesarus (what's another word for thesarus?) of our imaginations to explore as many interpetations between us as possible. We found our conclusions to be nearly boundless, except for what we reduced them to.

Here's another metaphor. If you put too much water on a plant... it won't grow. If you put just the right amount... it will grow on its own according to its own nature. If you blast the living daylights out of it with heavy chemical fertilizers and pesticides it may grow fast fast fast... but, you end up with a really weirded out plant. All I'm doing is a little watering in the sunshine.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469084 - 11/25/01 09:28 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

one of my neopagan friends once spoke disparagingly of the "christian fairy tale" --- i replied that some of us prefer to call it "the christian myth"


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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: gnrm23]
    #469291 - 11/25/01 02:34 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469466 - 11/25/01 05:39 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Enter, despite things that I have said, I have no ill feelings toward you, I don't ptiy you as a fool or anything like that! (That would be ridiculous, would it not?) I'm sorry to be such an ass, but I feel very strongly for this matter, as strongly as you do, and much stronger than most. (umm, that might not be a real phrase.)

About the quote I made, it was in fact not from the Bible, but from the recently unearthed and translated Gospel of Thomas. It was just translated in the 70's I believe. Here's the link:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

There's much good stuff there, the Gospels are toward the bottom, and not really out in the open. You'll see the links though (there's three in the main text body...) Take a look at the Gospel of Thomas, Philip, and Truth... My quote came from Thomas, the second quote there. There are some VERY interesting things there.
I put as much faith (if not more) in these being accurate as I put in the Bible.

Alright, on to your questions (and I just had a very serious bit of deja vu btw. not being sacrastic either.)

"How are you seeking? What process of seeking have you chosen? Are you consistent in the process you have chosen and are you honest in maintaining that process?"

Well, my seeking was not a choice, but something inflicted on me. 1/0 talks about "doing a little watering in the sunshine." Well, I did not have that luxury, and in fact have grown a little weird by the barrage of information I have been thrust into.
I was a regular teenager (well, sort of...). My life began to grow consistently worse and worse, and I couldn't figure out why. Finally I was reduced to nothing. Literally. My life actually fell apart. I couldn't stay in school. I was suddenly inflicted with the truths of the world that most people know of, but somehow remain ignorantly blissful. My conventional life was over.
Since then, I have invested nearly all of my waking hours to constant thought on these issues. (Lots of issues actually.) It will be a year in Jan. since my life finally crumbled, and I have only begun to rebuild it. I've started back in school (correspondance). This has been a very long journey, and at times I was literally close to insanity (I was nearly put in hospital a few times, and for awhile I had doctors pumping all kinds of anti-depressants into, despite the obvious fact that I wasn't low on seratonin or another chemical, I was seeing the world as it truly is for the first time.) During this time I have been completely transformed. My old muscle car is still sitting in the backyard, I never got a chance to fix it up. I have no job at the moment, no money, and very rarely is that a problem, since I don't buy many things. I have no desire for material possesions (well, a little).
This is only a very basic description of what has happened to me. VERY basic. This is how I got here. IF last year I had been happy in school and had fixed up my car and got a cute girlfiriend... I would not be here today. I would probably be an apprentice welder, making lots of money, and playing my X-Box instead of talking to you. Perhaps this is why I have a tendancy to try and suffocate the old ideals. If you break through the blanket, then your ideals are strengthened. If you perish underneath, then you will be born anew. Tis the road I took, and though VERY painful, it is very effective. Anything worth doing is worth doing right, in my opinion. So I gave myself over to madness, at first kicking and screaming, then complacent, then in sheer delight at what I'd seen and learned. And this is literal people. This isn't my overnight epiphany. This is ongoing, and it is hard. It is a gamble you take not with money, or time, but with your sanity.
So... the proverbial ice berg tips I have shared here are well earned. Like I said, I didn't "see the light" one day. I didn't suddenly believe, or find the truth, I succumbed to absolute horror and madness. I walked through the valley of the shadow of death in a sense. So, it is in this way that an 18 year old perfectly happy atheiest/pagan boy can arrive here in around one years time. It has been a very frightening and dangerous ordeal, but I wouldn't change a moment of it.

Does this make sense to anyone?


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469517 - 11/25/01 06:48 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Ok enter, I'll be glad to answer your questions (and don't think I'm messing with your mind, that would be mean). I see you are a good person - and that's all that matters.

How are you seeking?
Mainly now by practicing what I've learned. Also by continuing to learn. And narrowing it down to what works for me - at the same time staying open to truely new (to me) sources of information.

What process of seeking have you chosen?
Primarily communion with the sacred. This is then integrated into everyday life. Also Meditation (I can produce delta-waves on an EEG) - a living process of quieting the mind. And daily readings from the Dalia Lama for a "theme" to begin learning and practicing. Occasional readings from the Bible. Reading 7-8 books on and off too. Using the library.

Are you consistent in the process you have chosen and are you honest in maintaining that process?
Yes. And, the process grows - this way I won't get stuck in a loop. I do the best I can, but still err. Erring really gets my attention and I do something about it. Trying to live up to my potential.

Let me ask you one question in return: Do you have religious experiences (no details are necessary)?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469548 - 11/25/01 07:27 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Because of these (almost constant) experiences, I can do nothing but believe in the Lord Jesus. I am still a pathetic sinner in many regards...

In my view, a life-changing communication with Spirit such as you describe would, to be redundant, change one's life. Yet, in my experience and your statement seems to agree, that Chrisitians are no different externally than non-Christians, ie you are still a sinner and fall down. The standard Chrisitan response is "We are not perfect, just forgiven." This seems to be a cop-out. If one has some authentic form of enlightenment, shouldn't that be reflected in one's actions?

To use an analogy, if I am in a dark room and someone turns on the light, I will no longer bump into the furniture.

I regularly meet Christian women who enjoy my company, but are reluctant to get serious with me because I do not share their core beliefs, yet each one of them has been divorced and has had sex outside of marriage. Seems they violate the BIble's dictum to "not judge", yet have broken a vow taken in the Lord's name and disregarded the Bible's guidance on sex and marriage. I find it hypocritical that they want me to believe, but the evidence is that they don't truly believe else their actions would reflect this.

This goes back to a previous post in which I proclaimed that a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

My brother is a Born-Again. Actually told my mother, a devout Catholic that she would burn forever in hell because she was not the "right kind" of Christian. In his mind, only evangelical Baptists have the inside track. Is it not understandable how this attitude turns me away?

Would like your take on my perception.


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469576 - 11/25/01 08:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

enter said:
In reply to:

For this reason, you should atleast give me more credit than an alter boy who is being forced to go to church by his parents. I don't go to church. I don't force feed my beliefs on anyone (although I am more than happy to talk about them). I didn't pick up the Bible and say, "Ahh - at last, the Truth." It just worked out this way. It is my truth and I do hold it dearly, despite the fact that I still do not do what is completely right.
I eagerly await your feedback, gentlemen.




Yes, truth.. Is it universal? I'd say with unequivocal no. From my experience, I realized it is quite easy to fall into the trap when we deduce-associate our experiences to be the ultimate truth. There is no all-defining object of Truth. At least, not at the rate we are achieving in evolution as a whole.

The one of the best realizable element of truth is insights. With insights shared among diversity, we can find and bridge discrete parallel-realizations of the common is the other element.

...In this case as yours, I understand your experiences are just as real as [insert your favourite mysticism].

Ulysees said:
Indeed.. Your experience and mine are similar in tone: destruction. I went tumbling down the mountain after experiencing (as shroomers put it) Level 5 and beyond a few times. Now, I'm climbing up back..

In reply to:

About the quote I made, it was in fact not from the Bible, but from the recently unearthed and translated Gospel of Thomas. It was just translated in the 70's I believe. Here's the link:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html




I noticed there like 12 gospels after finding out -there- was gospels (Thomas) outside OT/NT. I kind wonder why these gospels were not made more public. Come to think of it, I was in the catholic system for 12 years, there was never once a mention of any authentic-capable works outside the Bible.

oneoverzero said:
In reply to:

Primarily communion with the sacred. This is then integrated into everyday life. Also Meditation (I can produce delta-waves on an EEG) - a living process of quieting the mind. And daily readings from the Dalia Lama for a "theme" to begin learning and practicing. Occasional readings from the Bible. Reading 7-8 books on and off too. Using the library.





Delta? That's incredibly deep. Are you alluding to the jhanas? These are absorption states that take the meditator deeper into twilight state.

Swami said:
In reply to:

My brother is a Born-Again. Actually told my mother, a devout Catholic that she would burn forever in hell because she was not the "right kind" of Christian. In his mind, only evangelical Baptists have the inside track. Is it not understandable how this attitude turns me away?

Would like your take on my perception




My comment in another thread best sums up yours:

An ass who becomes enlightened is even more of an a$$hole.

The margin of transpersonal achievement and pathocentricity is tiny. Even more tinier is the kernel of truth between delusion and disillusionment.


KtP

Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (11/25/01 08:16 PM)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #469586 - 11/25/01 08:34 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

re: delta-waves. Yeah it's no biggie. When I worked in sleep research I used to "surprise" the technicians during calibrations (I was the "guinie pig" hehe). They'd run around the department showing each other the paper-ink waves and ask me, "how did you do that? Is that normal for you?". By focusing awareness to differnt areas of the brain I can also send "morse code" over an EEG by pulsing awareness on the visual cortex, generate high right brain activity with low left brain activity, etc, etc, etc.. Don't think I'm some kind of super-guru... I'm not into all that crap. I meditate, that is all.


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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469647 - 11/25/01 10:35 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #469670 - 11/25/01 11:20 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

ArCH TemPlaR: Did your downfall happen because of the shrooms? I wouldn't be very happy if I did that to myself (at least not during the worst times) through an actual physical activity. Mine happened apparently on its own accord, and that was one of the reasons I was able to keep it together.
I noticed though that you were the only person to acknowledge my course, what do the rest of you think? Maybe it was too long and nobody read it... ;)


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Swami]
    #469684 - 11/25/01 11:59 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Swami- Yes, I totally agree with this. (I don't mean to insult anyone, but if you are insulted, then perhaps it does apply to you?)
"In my view, a life-changing communication with Spirit such as you describe would, to be redundant, change one's life. Yet, in my experience and your statement seems to agree, that Chrisitians are no different externally than non-Christians, ie you are still a sinner and fall down. The standard Chrisitan response is "We are not perfect, just forgiven." This seems to be a cop-out. If one has some authentic form of enlightenment, shouldn't that be reflected in one's actions?

To use an analogy, if I am in a dark room and someone turns on the light, I will no longer bump into the furniture. "

Yep... Now, I don't want to be arrogant again, but here goes: I would venture a guess that I am in fact a better person than, oh, a rather large percentage of the population. Now, that doesn't mean that everything I do is right (for instance, my status as a good person is by no means permanent, everything I touch does not turn to gold). If all that I have sacrificed and all that I embrace and practice has yeilded me no better than most, then what would yeild it? Now don't get me wrong, I am in fact very humble... Being a good person is not simply about being polite to everyone. That really makes no sense. I love everyone, but I would not tell every person I come across that they are a good person, just because they are polite... (This isn't directed at any one person in particular, but again, if you feel it is, perhaps it does apply to you...)
I get the feeling that I have inspired some ill feelings in some. Would being quiet and agreeing with everyone make me a better person? No, it wouldn't. It would make me more popular. (not that I'm Jesus, but he wasn't a very popular guy at all in his time, and this is something that I just realized, not something that I strive to duplicate.)
God tested Job, right? He took his family, gave him lepracy... Still, God was not a bad person (or entity) was he? No. The truth, or enlightnment, or Good... is not all about sun shine and lollipops. It isn't just a hobby to make one happy. It is selflessness, sacrifice, pain... and hence reward (which is meager to some, no, God will not give you lot's of money if you pray to him...).
Am I a good person? Well, you should have no reason to believe one way or the other, for no-one here knows me.

In saying these things I am not being defensive, I am not offended, I am not whining. I am not afraid of challenge, just to let you know. I'm not saying "it's your loss if you don't like me", and I hate it when people say things like that. (Why is it my loss? You don't seem that great... People like to make themselves feel better while ignoring thier beliefs or the truth. Are you a better person when you do that to make someone else feel better? Is that being a good person? Well, no, you're encouraging that person to stay the same, whether that's good or bad. Why do we fear pain and confrontation so much? This is why most people cannot handle psychedelic drugs, they cannot face pain, the truth that they are not as good as they convince themselves that they are, usually for trivial reasons.)
So no, saying you believe in Jesus, or acting in a way that you think Jesus would like does not automatically make you a good person. And of course this relates to me, but I have looked at myself, I have made the changes that hurt. Have you? If you say that you are still a hopeless sinner, than what was the point? I would not go through any of this just to remain a sinner.


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OfflineFelstorm
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469784 - 11/26/01 03:37 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

AHAHAHHHAAHAHAH!

Please stop you are too funny.

What you encountered is Divinity.

And seeing as you are not so attached to your bible I will procede to tell you there is some truth in it but that most of it is hacked male-dominance doctrine.


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To do a thing and know no better is ignorance.
It is an act of kindness to educate the ignorant.
To do a wrong thing intentionally, is evil and wicked.





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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469795 - 11/26/01 04:49 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I'm glad we're getting along. I can relate to you because the church's extentional devotionals & breif socializing I occasionly visit looks at me as an outsider they want to convert into their idea of what I should be. If they only took the time to drop the "I better ACT LIKE a Chrisitian" in front of everybody else doing the same... well, you know.

Religious experience in the Bible was seeing and hearing and talking to angels for example. I am familiar with the intense feeling of internal moments putting the scriptures together in a realization of thought. Those can be profound moments of guidance. Here's what I'm talking about as religious experience in the Bible:

REVELATIONS 10:1-10 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire. He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land, and called out with a with a loud voice, like a lion roaring; when he called out the seven thunders sounded. And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down" And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and land lifted his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there should be no more delay, but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled.

Then the voice which I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, "Go, take the scroll which is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll; and he said to me, "Take it and eat it: it will be bitter to your stomach but sweet as honey in your mouth." And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings"


Of course this is John (you know he was the man who baptised Jesus) writing this scripture known as The Bitter Scroll


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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469834 - 11/26/01 08:13 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #470110 - 11/26/01 02:01 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I was wrong. And can you believe that was Harod's one and only request? Sheesh. And how exactly did Apostle John recieve the Revelations? By eating the bitter scroll? How can it be sweet in the mouth and bitter in the stomach? What does that mean? I mean the stomach can't taste bitter... I think it's metaphorical (what's a metaphor for metaphor?) for something else. Something deeper than words on a scroll. Deeper than the scroll he wrote The Bitter Scroll on.

I don't know much else about Mitachondria Eve other than what I've said. It has something to do with DNA - a molecular living memory in every cell with the complete blueprints for your body's entire lifespan. DNA is a double-helix - one helix came from mother, one helix came from father. Putting the two together is known as "the spark of life" in which your body was created leading to the miracle of your birth. This seems to happen for everybody for some reason. :smile:


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #470214 - 11/26/01 03:51 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"Although we are probably two worlds apart in many ways, we probably have more in common than either of us would like to admit."

Hey, after hearing your stories, I would say that we do have more in common then previously thought, and I'm glad to admit it, cause those were some cool stories! Right on... Don't worry about "archers" as you put it. Thoses were some coherent, hard to discedit accounts. Plus, if they actually are true, how could an "archer" (I like this term by the way, I used to be an archer, with a bow and all...), um, how could an archer effect you? Honestly, you are the better for your experiences, so show it! Don't worry about them hurting your feelings! If they have not had similar experiences, it is their loss. (They won't think so, but if they ever HAVE an experience like this, they'll understand. And remember, I was once like them. Believing in no religion, no need for it, and thinking that someone who does just needs a crutch... Well, I've found a nice balance now...)

And 1/0, I'll tell you how it is with the bitter scroll... It may have been a mushroom. It would taste sweet as honey to the mouth, as it would have been preserved in honey. It would be bitter to the stomach, as you may know the mushroom is (apparently wild harvested are even worse).
Do you think that someone would gain anything from eating an actual bitter flavoured scroll? No, probaby not. Then, when considering that there are substances on the earth that produce profound visions and open the mind... Could it have been a mushroom? I wouldn't say for sure, but it's a novel thought at least. And the word "scroll" could just be a metaphor or something for what the mushroom contained, in knowledge. It's not so hard to believe. They wouldn't call it "Psilocybe Cubensis" or something, would they?

http://www.sirius.com/~holy/mushroom.html

Check that link out for some good info on Mushrooms in religion.



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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #470459 - 11/26/01 07:55 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Ulysees, I'll accept your idea in general. It is known the pharohs of Egypt learned to preserve with honey - honey has been called the "perfect food"; for one reason it is directly digested (mostly glucose) and another obvious reason is honey does't spoil.

Re-reading the scripture - Apostle John wrote his stomach was made bitter. My interpretation of what he meant by "bitter" is what we today call "nausea". So he did eat something, and if you read verse 10 again, he was told to phophesy after this. I am reading a connection between whatever it was he ate, and his religious experience with angels.

Let us keep in mind this scripture was a revelation of the Apacolypse - he was writing about the future in prophesy.

Look what's happening in todays world...


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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473120 - 11/29/01 12:02 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Without getting into aliens, which I don't believe exist at all, I was curious if anyone does believe in a race of living, intelligent, human-like beings that existed on earth before humans...(?)




Well without making a statement like most 'aliens' are humans, I believe that the Earth has been inhabited in the very ancient past (pre-Adam) by many civilizations of intelligent humans. As Earth has been a great source of interest since its inception, due to it's very lush and diverse forms of life. Many societies flourished on Earth for thousands of years such as the one before the last 'fall' (referring to a previous pole shift in which the Atlantis civilization was destroyed or "The Great Flood" as in the story in the Bible with Noah.)
We humans have an extensive background, and it did not start when Adam and Eve were around.. that's just as far back as we can recall through stories.

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473126 - 11/29/01 12:09 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473133 - 11/29/01 12:16 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I did say I believe ___ it's in the second sentence.

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Anonymous

Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473136 - 11/29/01 12:17 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, its the first sentence.

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473138 - 11/29/01 12:19 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473148 - 11/29/01 12:30 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps it was a bit illustrious.
Ok I hereby retract that statement and in its place will put:
We humans have an extensive background, and I believe it did not start when Adam and Eve were around.. that's just as far back as I believe we can recall through stories.

There now everyone is happy. (I believe)

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473164 - 11/29/01 12:49 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473169 - 11/29/01 12:52 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Hopi Indian wisdom shares with us man has risen and thrived and then perished away four(4) times on earth. The last time, according to their wisdom was the great flood. The Hopi elders have been and are pleading with the United Nations to bring peace lest we perish once again.

ADDED TO POST: I made a 'freudian slip' in saying man perished four(4) times. It was three(3) times. We are the fourth... yikes!


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/29/01 01:23 AM)

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #473173 - 11/29/01 12:55 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473191 - 11/29/01 01:16 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)



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Anonymous

Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #473211 - 11/29/01 01:42 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I almost slipped and brought in some things about aliens. When you mentioned the Hopi I was reminded of their legend, which without going into detail involves a "white-skinned brother from the stars named Pahanna who brings the wisdom and love of the Universe"
Their whole society is based on the return of Pahanna and the preparation thereof. However I will respect this thread since Enter requested no mention of aliens. Realize though.. that it's really, REALLY hard to not bring it up when you are talking about ancient civilizations on Earth.
Perhaps a new thread on the Hopi.

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473215 - 11/29/01 01:50 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473218 - 11/29/01 02:00 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that we seem to look at the worst case scenario, ultimately ending in some type of Armegeddon situation. I believe much of this does indeed have to do with the 'fall' and subconscious fears of similar events which have carried over into the present.
I think it depends on how you look at it, from one side it seems as though the teachings are of destruction of society, but from another it teaches the integration of all beings into oneness.

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ]
    #473220 - 11/29/01 02:01 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

hehe. I've got my mouth zipped shut too. mmh mmh...


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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #473227 - 11/29/01 02:17 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473255 - 11/29/01 03:37 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Have you considered we are merely speaking about the same thing, same language, same ideas, only in different ways?


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Anonymous

Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #473257 - 11/29/01 03:39 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Inevitably.
I think we are sharing the same thoughts and ideas from our different perspectives.

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #473259 - 11/29/01 03:51 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473260 - 11/29/01 03:55 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #473269 - 11/29/01 04:30 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

There are two basic approaches to seeking the truth.

1) is to come to psycological conclusions. This ends the seeking. Having all the answers.

2) is to have all the questions. This keeps seeking open. Conclusions are still made, but only within the context of continuing the seeking of truth.


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/29/01 04:34 AM)

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #485713 - 12/10/01 03:46 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Excuse my very tardy reply. ..But anyways..

1/0 said:
In reply to:

re: delta-waves. Yeah it's no biggie. When I worked in sleep research I used to "surprise" the technicians during calibrations (I was the "guinie pig" hehe). They'd run around the department showing each other the paper-ink waves and ask me, "how did you do that? Is that normal for you?". By focusing awareness to differnt areas of the brain I can also send "morse code" over an EEG by pulsing awareness on the visual cortex, generate high right brain activity with low left brain activity, etc, etc, etc.. Don't think I'm some kind of super-guru... I'm not into all that crap. I meditate, that is all.




WhaT? No biggie?! Delta-waves are nearing the state of sleep. It is a feat most cannot do without some conscious practice and effort to keep the mind awake.

Ulysees said:
In reply to:

ArCH TemPlaR: Did your downfall happen because of the shrooms? I wouldn't be very happy if I did that to myself (at least not during the worst times) through an actual physical activity. Mine happened apparently on its own accord, and that was one of the reasons I was able to keep it together.
I noticed though that you were the only person to acknowledge my course, what do the rest of you think? Maybe it was too long and nobody read it... ;)




Sorry for my late reply.. Yes, I acknowledge it because your experience was similar (minus the full details) to mine. So to answer your question, the shrooms were the catalyst. It would have eventually happened anyway. This was the fastest but still painful way to take a 2 by 4 (=shrooms) to the head! *WHACK! See colors.. Lo and behold, here comes Satori.. Aaaaaagggggghhhhh!! Deep six into the abyss.. Personally, I don't recommend it. :P

Worst was the understatement of the preceded at this moment. Eviscerated would be the fitting meaning. :D Though, the process is not done.. It's amazing I can still smile no matter how crappy my state of mind is. It's even more amazing I still function, period.


Peace
u:[s]

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #485717 - 12/10/01 03:56 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

heh heh... I hear ya man... It's amazing I can still smile even though sometimes I have to get it through the thougth of "rendering myself free from this plane". (to put it gently.) Ahh well. (I've been saying that a lot lately.) Life's odd.

This was a very pleasant surprise at any rate. Better late than never man. :wink:


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