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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468911 - 11/25/01 01:49 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468990 - 11/25/01 03:59 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

ooo sorry for the tardy reply - I've been bouncing around a couple other forums, websites, searchengines, etc.

The Mitochondria Eve as you can see from the definition has genetic code in it. This code has been traced backwards in time through females only. I know it has been done, but I don't know how. Neway they found anscenstral remains (grave diggin' robbers IMHO) of Mitochondia Eve with genes that trace to every female's mitochondria today.

Now I'm not gonna call her Biblical Eve by any means at all. But it shows WE all came from ONE orginal family. No wonder the Bible teaches this. I believe my Bible (SRV), btw - yet my interpretations have transformed over the years.

When I read your beliefs let me quote scripture to you: JOHN 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe" - "him" above was Thomas who wouldn't believe Jesus was resurected until he saw his wounds and that he was alive.

Typical stance for many, eh? Gotta have proof first - and this lesson is in the scriptures about a disciple! Go figure...

~1/0 - Defender Of The Faith~


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/25/01 04:09 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #468996 - 11/25/01 04:21 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

"Typical stance for many, eh? Gotta have proof first - and this lesson is in the scriptures about a disciple! Go figure..."

Actually, I think our society is a little too good at accepting things without proof... If I accepted things without proof, without questioning them, even the most rudimentary things, I wouldn't be here my friend. I'd be on the other side of the barricades. We're all open-minded to a degree it seems, for some it ends here, with the acceptance of drugs (for whatever reason). Some of us take it further... You can't have too much of a good thing. ;) Besides, why would you want to limit yourself to one religion? Where's the fun in that? Got to look at all the possibilities...

One can simply accept Jesus, and be another believer, which is fine. Or, one can attempt to be *like* Jesus, by continually seeking...

Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

One of my favorites.


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Edited by Ulysees (11/25/01 04:31 AM)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469001 - 11/25/01 04:36 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

:laugh: uuuuuuuuuuh ok i accept your statement uuuuuuuuuuh :laugh:

Back to evolution. As I was taught in Honor's College Biology, evolution is more of a classification system than anything else. It's useful Today in this way. One of the excercises we did in class was break into about 6 groups of 3 peeps and come up with our own classification scheme for a series of fictiional organisms. Every single group had a completely different scheme.

Just look at modern mycology. Classifying mushrooms is rediculously complex.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469003 - 11/25/01 04:46 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

ok... It's complex, but we think the human DNA strand is complex today. Yesterday it was mind boggling. Tomorrow we might be modifying it. I don't really know where I'm going, but even though evolution theories aren't spotless, doesn't mean that evolution doesn't exist in some form... Mycology classification is tough, but we know that mushrooms are in fact different.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469006 - 11/25/01 05:05 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ooops I think you can type faster than me. One thing I very much take into consideration when talking about religion and scriptures (I earnestly study Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, and Shamanism too) is to consider who I'm talking to and how they use language.

In Zen we say, "at first I saw mountains as mountains, then I did not see them as mountains anymore. Now that many years have passed I see mountains as mountains again"

So here talking to enter I don't see any reason to twist his brain around in crazy circles to proove I'm right. He's right to believe what's right for him. And, he IS seeking just by taking the onslaughts of challenges here. I respect that. I could tell him some people find the meaning of god in a mushroom, but he finds the meaning of god in his own way. Fair is fair. At least he's a spiritual person in a spirtuality forum, eh?

In California we say, "I may not agree with you, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it" - freedom of speech, not oppression by speech.


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Edited by oneoverzero (11/25/01 05:07 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469011 - 11/25/01 05:37 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

What you talking bout? Am I being oppressive? If so, I apologize. I'm actually a very spiritual person as well, although I reconcile that with some things I like to call "un-ignorable facts". These facts, though definately not concrete, are in fact un-ignorable.
To have a discussion about such things without consulting these un-ignorable facts is like playing cards without a full deck, if you catch my drift. I have a hard time going through a discussion without bringing them up...
So, I'm not trying to twist anyones brain around in crazy circles to prove that I'm right, I'm just showing the rest of the deck... (IMO anyway)

In this vein, I think that enter is wrong (in the sense that I don't think he's seeing enough of the picture... though it may not be the real picture, or the only picture...). I'll admit that, though I wouldn't attempt to push that past opinion. I also wouldn't say I am right... Nor would I say that my view is better, but different, and for me the only acceptable path to walk at this time. SO, if you can see past the first statement (about enter being wrong) you might understand my very flexible belief system. Hell, I'm confused right now.

If you're going to study numerous religions and theories, you're going to have to believe that nothing you are studying is wrong, but everything that you are studying may not be right. This isn't some mind-screw, this is just how you have to operate when you're opening so many doors, and accepting so many contradictions.

And btw- I don't know if I type faster than you, my night is just slower than yours. ;)


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Edited by Ulysees (11/25/01 05:43 AM)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469019 - 11/25/01 06:24 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

1/0, you are obviously an intelligent person who has considered these things in detail. I'm not posting the following to be an ass, but I want to know what you think of them.
These are some of the things I have written earlier in this thread, they may seem arrogant, especially when isolated like this, but I digress.

I'm pretty sure we did evolve... some way or another. I find it interesting that the Pope has decided that science and religion can fit together, and that he has accepted and seemingly embraced the evolution theory. I don't think either one rules the other out...

I'm not trying to insult your beliefs, I just think that the conventional creation theory is probably wrong. Unless 6 God days equals 25 billion earth years or something...
These are the facts: The bible doesn't document people as sharing the planet with one celled organisms and crap until they all evolved. Nor does the bible document people living alongside dinosaurs... So if we were created by God, it was a long ways into the earths life. (Perhaps he started out small?) I think the birth of humans and the birth of God coincide quite nicely, and maybe that's why he worships us. We made him... Who's your daddy God? That's right... heh heh.

To put this more clearly, where do you think the dinosaurs came from? Unless the government planted the bones so that we could have this very discussion, they were obviously here long before us, and there were things here long before them. So, unless God created them, than screwed around for a few eons, then wiped them out, and made some other stuff, screwed around a little more... Eventually deciding to make people (and doing a very interesting job of it no less. Why do we have some of the worst eyes on the planet, the worst sense of smell... I wanna know that God. Why you wanna keep a brotha down? Why give a measly eagle eyes that are, oh, I don't remember how many times better than ours, if we're created in your image... You got glaucoma or something? Maybe you got a stick in the eye during a heavenly polo game?)

------- Alright, some of that sounds very bad... heh heh. I meant no offence to God, as I believe there is in fact some God.
Notice I said way up there "I don't think that either rules the other out." in referance to creationism and evolution, as I in fact have found a balance between the two, at least for the time being.
Still, what of it? How can you explain the dinosaurs and the things that preceeded them yada yada. (which may of course be horribly misrepresented, though I doubt it's that far off...) I'm not trying to be an ass here either, I want to know your opinion. If you told me something that made me believe that the conventional creationism theory is in fact true, then I'd gladly accept it. Honestly. I have no predisposition towards any one theory, this is just where I have ended up for the time being, but as I've said, I'm still seeking.

I'm in this to learn too, not just disrupt peoples beliefs.

Oh ya, something I've been thinking about: Though God didn't invent the Earth and the Sun and the cosmos (IMO), I think that he may have had something to do with consciousness. Could Genesis be a metaphor for that? You might not think so, and I don't know. It may be myth or something similar, remember all the other people that have believed so faithfully in things? Most of us now think they were ignorant, and we may face the same future ourselves. Still, I do believe that there is something... I think that we ARE God, or that consciousness and knowledge is God, and that the whole grand story of Genesis is in fact a metephor of sorts, a myth if you will, but all myths are born of consciousness, and so all myths are God... In the realm beyond the physical plane that we know, there exists one more akin to thought... (sort of) Is this heaven? I don't know, but what's in a name anyhow? God, evolution, creationism, these are all very primitive forms of explaing things. The fact is that we are HERE. We are ALIVE, and that is proof enough that whatever you feel like calling it is real. So in this sense, nobody is wrong... some may just be more surprised than others. ;)
Well, I'm rambling, I hope I've said something interesting, but that is a picture of the constantly evolving yet tangled web yet simple vision that is my belief. :)

Oh crap, I had one more thought, this is the last one I promise.
You and I know, through study of shamanic healing and rituals, the power of consciousness, and that which is beyond. Correct? I have a tendancy to believe that Jesus Christ was in fact a Shaman of sorts. I think that some of his accomplishments were not miracles in the way that most see them, but skills of consciousness. I will track down some of the more interesting quotes and things I have come across.
Maybe you can somehow apply these further ramblings to the above.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469028 - 11/25/01 07:12 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Theory of evolution may have some holes I agree, but with all the evidence that we have is the best explanation that we have to date, as for creationist theory I am sorry but is kind of childish to me, that was the best explanation that they came up back in the past.
And I don't understand why people will hold on to stories that were written 3 or 4 thousand years ago, and hold it as true.
I was raced a catholic, I went to catholic school, but they always thought us in biology theory of evolution, is only here in the US that people go so crazy with this creationist theory.
No offence intended, but Christians should no try to impose their beliefs on others, if not you will become like the taliban.
Religion belief is a personal thing, if you don't want to believe in science so be it but don't try to stop it.
Again I hope no one got offended, Is just my personal opinion.


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Ulysees]
    #469059 - 11/25/01 08:13 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

hey man, actually I DO know what your talking about. You asked if Genesis was a metaphor? Yup. Once three of us, friends, got into decoding GENESIS 1:1-5 within which we spent a total of 20 hours work. We used a dictionary and the thesarus (what's another word for thesarus?) of our imaginations to explore as many interpetations between us as possible. We found our conclusions to be nearly boundless, except for what we reduced them to.

Here's another metaphor. If you put too much water on a plant... it won't grow. If you put just the right amount... it will grow on its own according to its own nature. If you blast the living daylights out of it with heavy chemical fertilizers and pesticides it may grow fast fast fast... but, you end up with a really weirded out plant. All I'm doing is a little watering in the sunshine.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469084 - 11/25/01 09:28 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

one of my neopagan friends once spoke disparagingly of the "christian fairy tale" --- i replied that some of us prefer to call it "the christian myth"


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: gnrm23]
    #469291 - 11/25/01 02:34 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469466 - 11/25/01 05:39 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Enter, despite things that I have said, I have no ill feelings toward you, I don't ptiy you as a fool or anything like that! (That would be ridiculous, would it not?) I'm sorry to be such an ass, but I feel very strongly for this matter, as strongly as you do, and much stronger than most. (umm, that might not be a real phrase.)

About the quote I made, it was in fact not from the Bible, but from the recently unearthed and translated Gospel of Thomas. It was just translated in the 70's I believe. Here's the link:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

There's much good stuff there, the Gospels are toward the bottom, and not really out in the open. You'll see the links though (there's three in the main text body...) Take a look at the Gospel of Thomas, Philip, and Truth... My quote came from Thomas, the second quote there. There are some VERY interesting things there.
I put as much faith (if not more) in these being accurate as I put in the Bible.

Alright, on to your questions (and I just had a very serious bit of deja vu btw. not being sacrastic either.)

"How are you seeking? What process of seeking have you chosen? Are you consistent in the process you have chosen and are you honest in maintaining that process?"

Well, my seeking was not a choice, but something inflicted on me. 1/0 talks about "doing a little watering in the sunshine." Well, I did not have that luxury, and in fact have grown a little weird by the barrage of information I have been thrust into.
I was a regular teenager (well, sort of...). My life began to grow consistently worse and worse, and I couldn't figure out why. Finally I was reduced to nothing. Literally. My life actually fell apart. I couldn't stay in school. I was suddenly inflicted with the truths of the world that most people know of, but somehow remain ignorantly blissful. My conventional life was over.
Since then, I have invested nearly all of my waking hours to constant thought on these issues. (Lots of issues actually.) It will be a year in Jan. since my life finally crumbled, and I have only begun to rebuild it. I've started back in school (correspondance). This has been a very long journey, and at times I was literally close to insanity (I was nearly put in hospital a few times, and for awhile I had doctors pumping all kinds of anti-depressants into, despite the obvious fact that I wasn't low on seratonin or another chemical, I was seeing the world as it truly is for the first time.) During this time I have been completely transformed. My old muscle car is still sitting in the backyard, I never got a chance to fix it up. I have no job at the moment, no money, and very rarely is that a problem, since I don't buy many things. I have no desire for material possesions (well, a little).
This is only a very basic description of what has happened to me. VERY basic. This is how I got here. IF last year I had been happy in school and had fixed up my car and got a cute girlfiriend... I would not be here today. I would probably be an apprentice welder, making lots of money, and playing my X-Box instead of talking to you. Perhaps this is why I have a tendancy to try and suffocate the old ideals. If you break through the blanket, then your ideals are strengthened. If you perish underneath, then you will be born anew. Tis the road I took, and though VERY painful, it is very effective. Anything worth doing is worth doing right, in my opinion. So I gave myself over to madness, at first kicking and screaming, then complacent, then in sheer delight at what I'd seen and learned. And this is literal people. This isn't my overnight epiphany. This is ongoing, and it is hard. It is a gamble you take not with money, or time, but with your sanity.
So... the proverbial ice berg tips I have shared here are well earned. Like I said, I didn't "see the light" one day. I didn't suddenly believe, or find the truth, I succumbed to absolute horror and madness. I walked through the valley of the shadow of death in a sense. So, it is in this way that an 18 year old perfectly happy atheiest/pagan boy can arrive here in around one years time. It has been a very frightening and dangerous ordeal, but I wouldn't change a moment of it.

Does this make sense to anyone?


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469517 - 11/25/01 06:48 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Ok enter, I'll be glad to answer your questions (and don't think I'm messing with your mind, that would be mean). I see you are a good person - and that's all that matters.

How are you seeking?
Mainly now by practicing what I've learned. Also by continuing to learn. And narrowing it down to what works for me - at the same time staying open to truely new (to me) sources of information.

What process of seeking have you chosen?
Primarily communion with the sacred. This is then integrated into everyday life. Also Meditation (I can produce delta-waves on an EEG) - a living process of quieting the mind. And daily readings from the Dalia Lama for a "theme" to begin learning and practicing. Occasional readings from the Bible. Reading 7-8 books on and off too. Using the library.

Are you consistent in the process you have chosen and are you honest in maintaining that process?
Yes. And, the process grows - this way I won't get stuck in a loop. I do the best I can, but still err. Erring really gets my attention and I do something about it. Trying to live up to my potential.

Let me ask you one question in return: Do you have religious experiences (no details are necessary)?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469548 - 11/25/01 07:27 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Because of these (almost constant) experiences, I can do nothing but believe in the Lord Jesus. I am still a pathetic sinner in many regards...

In my view, a life-changing communication with Spirit such as you describe would, to be redundant, change one's life. Yet, in my experience and your statement seems to agree, that Chrisitians are no different externally than non-Christians, ie you are still a sinner and fall down. The standard Chrisitan response is "We are not perfect, just forgiven." This seems to be a cop-out. If one has some authentic form of enlightenment, shouldn't that be reflected in one's actions?

To use an analogy, if I am in a dark room and someone turns on the light, I will no longer bump into the furniture.

I regularly meet Christian women who enjoy my company, but are reluctant to get serious with me because I do not share their core beliefs, yet each one of them has been divorced and has had sex outside of marriage. Seems they violate the BIble's dictum to "not judge", yet have broken a vow taken in the Lord's name and disregarded the Bible's guidance on sex and marriage. I find it hypocritical that they want me to believe, but the evidence is that they don't truly believe else their actions would reflect this.

This goes back to a previous post in which I proclaimed that a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

My brother is a Born-Again. Actually told my mother, a devout Catholic that she would burn forever in hell because she was not the "right kind" of Christian. In his mind, only evangelical Baptists have the inside track. Is it not understandable how this attitude turns me away?

Would like your take on my perception.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: World Spirit]
    #469576 - 11/25/01 08:13 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

enter said:
In reply to:

For this reason, you should atleast give me more credit than an alter boy who is being forced to go to church by his parents. I don't go to church. I don't force feed my beliefs on anyone (although I am more than happy to talk about them). I didn't pick up the Bible and say, "Ahh - at last, the Truth." It just worked out this way. It is my truth and I do hold it dearly, despite the fact that I still do not do what is completely right.
I eagerly await your feedback, gentlemen.




Yes, truth.. Is it universal? I'd say with unequivocal no. From my experience, I realized it is quite easy to fall into the trap when we deduce-associate our experiences to be the ultimate truth. There is no all-defining object of Truth. At least, not at the rate we are achieving in evolution as a whole.

The one of the best realizable element of truth is insights. With insights shared among diversity, we can find and bridge discrete parallel-realizations of the common is the other element.

...In this case as yours, I understand your experiences are just as real as [insert your favourite mysticism].

Ulysees said:
Indeed.. Your experience and mine are similar in tone: destruction. I went tumbling down the mountain after experiencing (as shroomers put it) Level 5 and beyond a few times. Now, I'm climbing up back..

In reply to:

About the quote I made, it was in fact not from the Bible, but from the recently unearthed and translated Gospel of Thomas. It was just translated in the 70's I believe. Here's the link:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html




I noticed there like 12 gospels after finding out -there- was gospels (Thomas) outside OT/NT. I kind wonder why these gospels were not made more public. Come to think of it, I was in the catholic system for 12 years, there was never once a mention of any authentic-capable works outside the Bible.

oneoverzero said:
In reply to:

Primarily communion with the sacred. This is then integrated into everyday life. Also Meditation (I can produce delta-waves on an EEG) - a living process of quieting the mind. And daily readings from the Dalia Lama for a "theme" to begin learning and practicing. Occasional readings from the Bible. Reading 7-8 books on and off too. Using the library.





Delta? That's incredibly deep. Are you alluding to the jhanas? These are absorption states that take the meditator deeper into twilight state.

Swami said:
In reply to:

My brother is a Born-Again. Actually told my mother, a devout Catholic that she would burn forever in hell because she was not the "right kind" of Christian. In his mind, only evangelical Baptists have the inside track. Is it not understandable how this attitude turns me away?

Would like your take on my perception




My comment in another thread best sums up yours:

An ass who becomes enlightened is even more of an a$$hole.

The margin of transpersonal achievement and pathocentricity is tiny. Even more tinier is the kernel of truth between delusion and disillusionment.


KtP

Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (11/25/01 08:16 PM)

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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #469586 - 11/25/01 08:34 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

re: delta-waves. Yeah it's no biggie. When I worked in sleep research I used to "surprise" the technicians during calibrations (I was the "guinie pig" hehe). They'd run around the department showing each other the paper-ink waves and ask me, "how did you do that? Is that normal for you?". By focusing awareness to differnt areas of the brain I can also send "morse code" over an EEG by pulsing awareness on the visual cortex, generate high right brain activity with low left brain activity, etc, etc, etc.. Don't think I'm some kind of super-guru... I'm not into all that crap. I meditate, that is all.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #469647 - 11/25/01 10:35 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #469670 - 11/25/01 11:20 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

ArCH TemPlaR: Did your downfall happen because of the shrooms? I wouldn't be very happy if I did that to myself (at least not during the worst times) through an actual physical activity. Mine happened apparently on its own accord, and that was one of the reasons I was able to keep it together.
I noticed though that you were the only person to acknowledge my course, what do the rest of you think? Maybe it was too long and nobody read it... ;)


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Pre-Adamic Race on earth??? [Re: Swami]
    #469684 - 11/25/01 11:59 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Swami- Yes, I totally agree with this. (I don't mean to insult anyone, but if you are insulted, then perhaps it does apply to you?)
"In my view, a life-changing communication with Spirit such as you describe would, to be redundant, change one's life. Yet, in my experience and your statement seems to agree, that Chrisitians are no different externally than non-Christians, ie you are still a sinner and fall down. The standard Chrisitan response is "We are not perfect, just forgiven." This seems to be a cop-out. If one has some authentic form of enlightenment, shouldn't that be reflected in one's actions?

To use an analogy, if I am in a dark room and someone turns on the light, I will no longer bump into the furniture. "

Yep... Now, I don't want to be arrogant again, but here goes: I would venture a guess that I am in fact a better person than, oh, a rather large percentage of the population. Now, that doesn't mean that everything I do is right (for instance, my status as a good person is by no means permanent, everything I touch does not turn to gold). If all that I have sacrificed and all that I embrace and practice has yeilded me no better than most, then what would yeild it? Now don't get me wrong, I am in fact very humble... Being a good person is not simply about being polite to everyone. That really makes no sense. I love everyone, but I would not tell every person I come across that they are a good person, just because they are polite... (This isn't directed at any one person in particular, but again, if you feel it is, perhaps it does apply to you...)
I get the feeling that I have inspired some ill feelings in some. Would being quiet and agreeing with everyone make me a better person? No, it wouldn't. It would make me more popular. (not that I'm Jesus, but he wasn't a very popular guy at all in his time, and this is something that I just realized, not something that I strive to duplicate.)
God tested Job, right? He took his family, gave him lepracy... Still, God was not a bad person (or entity) was he? No. The truth, or enlightnment, or Good... is not all about sun shine and lollipops. It isn't just a hobby to make one happy. It is selflessness, sacrifice, pain... and hence reward (which is meager to some, no, God will not give you lot's of money if you pray to him...).
Am I a good person? Well, you should have no reason to believe one way or the other, for no-one here knows me.

In saying these things I am not being defensive, I am not offended, I am not whining. I am not afraid of challenge, just to let you know. I'm not saying "it's your loss if you don't like me", and I hate it when people say things like that. (Why is it my loss? You don't seem that great... People like to make themselves feel better while ignoring thier beliefs or the truth. Are you a better person when you do that to make someone else feel better? Is that being a good person? Well, no, you're encouraging that person to stay the same, whether that's good or bad. Why do we fear pain and confrontation so much? This is why most people cannot handle psychedelic drugs, they cannot face pain, the truth that they are not as good as they convince themselves that they are, usually for trivial reasons.)
So no, saying you believe in Jesus, or acting in a way that you think Jesus would like does not automatically make you a good person. And of course this relates to me, but I have looked at myself, I have made the changes that hurt. Have you? If you say that you are still a hopeless sinner, than what was the point? I would not go through any of this just to remain a sinner.


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