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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4679635 - 09/18/05 09:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I want to think that killing oneself is dumb
and selfish.
but
the kid is gone now
and I really have no judgement on that.
the mess left is cleaned up
the emotional issues have no closure.
that is why my elder bro keeps bringing me messages from the younger departed bro. emotional baggage. that's kinda dumb too, so
I just put up with it. Even geniuses act dumb.




Kind of what this is all about don't you think? Emotional baggage. What do we believe is real? What is going on here? Why am I feeling this way or that? Is this death a tragedy because it's happening in my life now? How do I feel about dying? How do I feel about living? Am I still afraid of what death means? Can I survive without you? Do I feel empty? :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4680929 - 09/19/05 03:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Your life is the one thing you can truly claim to own. Thus, it is the one thing that you have an absolute right to destroy if you see it fit to do so. Will others be hurt by it? Undoubtedly. But it is not their choice to make.




Let me repeat my words: Any action a human does that causes others to suffer is WRONG.



Then anyone who isn't a buddha is wrong, for the rest of us are all locked into the cycle of samsarra.


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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4680950 - 09/19/05 04:13 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure that's the proper interpretation the Buddha's teachings  :rolleyes:


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4681002 - 09/19/05 05:16 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

going mad is about being fucked up and probably about being selfish (who isn't) or uncivilized or not playing by anyone else's rules.

going mad is certainly about being entangled with wrong headed things.

how far can it be taken is often one of the most mad questions - there is no limit, taking a car in a mother's garage is not the worst though it hurts real bad.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4681005 - 09/19/05 05:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think any suffering in this world can be compared to a mother mourning a child who suicied,


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 38,066
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4681010 - 09/19/05 05:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sorry to bring it up, but
multiply by 10
or 100
a mad act is not limited by your imagination today


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4681011 - 09/19/05 05:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
I don't think any suffering in this world can be compared to a mother mourning a child who suicied,




--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 38,066
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4681014 - 09/19/05 05:26 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

my heart is sore thinking about it, try to heal.
it may not help, but we have to assume that the madness which goes to this point is not actually personal.
in ocd or depressed states, details become the person, the person is consumed in details and each detail creates its own new zone of rules - territories and battles are fought on land we cannot see or participate in.
in madness there is pain that we cannot share without going mad.
the mother's lament is pure
the grief is honest
the pain extreme
the horror
folds into
history
and becomes a detail:
a part of totality.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Edited by redgreenvines (09/19/05 05:48 AM)

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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 2 days
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Icelander]
    #4681024 - 09/19/05 05:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What do we believe is real? What is going on here? Why am I feeling this way or that? Is this death a tragedy because it's happening in my life now? How do I feel about dying? How do I feel about living? Am I still afraid of what death means? Can I survive without you? Do I feel empty?




are these choices?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4681048 - 09/19/05 06:51 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Absolutely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4681597 - 09/19/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The free will is always selfish.
The mother always will ask herself, what she could have done to prevent that suicide.
I have compassion for the boy, who also wants to set a sign, and for the mother, who can't accept/doubt reality. But I also say, the boy was wrong, as he did not see all his possibilities and supposed his act to be a final.
The mother is wrong in grieve, if she had done everything compassionate possible for him before his death. Else she could say "Ok, I have done, all I was able to, so I was not able to prevent. That's the way of live (including death) and a matter of his free will." You can't and should not try to prevent every risk from your kids, if they get older. So in this view, it was an accident.
It is hard, but all she now can do, is to deep analyze the WHY, and tell others from it, perhaps to better parental and social circumstances for kids.

But her cause to his death can't be bigger then her cause to his life.

There are many kids in need of help there outside... perhaps that will be her way ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4682494 - 09/19/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You entitled your thread "Why do they do it?" and then proceeded to answer your own question repeatedly and heatedly.  :confused:

As a psychology major, I can recognize the symptomology of depression in the seemingly cruel actions of the son.

As a mother, and empathic human being, I can feel compassion for the son who was so wrapped up in his pain (however temporary it may have proven to be) that he could not consider alternatives or reach out for help from those who loved him.

His decision to kill himself in his own garage (I assume that he lived there, too, and not just his Mom) was probably based in desperation rather than logic, forethought, compassion, consideration, or any other higher thinking/feeling states he might have been capable of under better emotional conditions.

I can feel great compassion for his mother, too.  My sons are very dear to me, and even knowing that they are wandering around in mortal, vulnerable bodies in a sometimes dangerous world can set my heart to quaking.  I recall a quote "giving birth to children is like putting legs on your heart and allowing it to walk around outside your body."  Loving anyone deeply is a risk, and requires strength of heart and mind.

I believe that her distress and grief, both in being the one to find his body, and in realizing that she was unaware of his pain in time to help him, was intense and unavoidable.  This is the risk we take in loving deeply: those we love are going to die, or we will die before them and leave them to grieve.

All of that said, I DO NOT believe that we owe it to those who love us to protect them from emotional pain.  We own our lives, and our choices can only be mitigated by the consideration of the effect they may have on others, not based on that consideration.

When you said that all those who cause others to suffer are wrong, you did indeed include the girlfriend who broke off an important relationship.  The boy who felt his heart to be irrevocably crushed was suffering.  How can you say you would not be critical of the girlfriend's actions?  Did she make her choices based on the "right" action of not causing others to suffer?

What of the stalker, who fixates on someone and believes him/herself to be deeply in love with them?  The object of their obsession sees the stalker as a criminal, and pursues legal remedies to the situation.  Does their avoidance of contact with/prosecution of their stalker consider the suffering they will cause?  Is this wrong?

You take compassion too far if you state that it requires free beings to base their actions on someone else's potential reaction.  :thumbdown:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4683943 - 09/19/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

if you are so messed up that you take your own life your basically functionally insane, suffering from severe disturbance, or a chemical imbalance in the brain. sure the persons loved ones also suffer, but heaping blame and shame on the person who killed themselves doesnt really make sense. suicidals are unwell. They live in a different world. in some ways its like calling a cancer victim a selfish fuck for dying. any one of us, including you, could have been born with a chemical imbalance or else experienced a horrible event that would make you do the same thing.

god help the suicidals and those they left behind


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
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Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4684230 - 09/19/05 09:45 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, maybe I came off as a little harsh. I still believe suicide is selfish. I mean, what else can you call killing yourself. Suicides are also lazy as I stated earlier. If someone is going to kill themselves they should at least make it look like an accident. It seems to me with a large number of suicides, people have a certain disregard for their loved ones that probably goes along the reasoning that they'll be dead anyway so what difference does it make. As for people who call the survived relatives "selfish" for wanting someone to be alive, well that's just plain stupid to say


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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InvisibleVirgilKane
Miner for truth and delusion
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: lowdown
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4684335 - 09/19/05 10:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It seems to me with a large number of suicides, people have a certain disregard for their loved ones that probably goes along the reasoning that they'll be dead anyway so what difference does it make.




Maybe they had an agenda that only they know about by doing it this way.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna

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Invisibleivi
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,089
Re: Why do they do it? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4684366 - 09/19/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ask your question here.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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