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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Is there good? Is there evil?
    #466256 - 11/22/01 12:32 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466257 - 11/22/01 12:33 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466260 - 11/22/01 12:38 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466325 - 11/22/01 01:42 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I think you're shooting kind of shallow in the "good vs. evil" pool. There are a lot of things to consider...


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Offlinejustthiz
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466407 - 11/22/01 05:11 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"For instance, I just got a new car and it is GOOD!!!!"
It's GOOD!!! For YOU maybe... but what about nature ? more cars aren't really good for the environment ... so it's EVIL!!! for nature...
I guess it's not that easy ... good/bad


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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: justthiz]
    #466517 - 11/22/01 08:25 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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Offlinemm.
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466557 - 11/22/01 10:48 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I guess the new car is an example of subjective good/evil, whereas torturing someone could be regarded as objectively evil. This raises the question; are there 'universal ethical principles' which apply to the actions of everyone? For example, if someone is tortured to death against their will, and that results in 1 or more other lives being saved, is that good or evil? Is there any way to objectively quantify the 'evil' in an action in order to weight it up against the 'good' that comes from it... because if there isnt, there can be no universal moral code.


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OfflineHARRY
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466579 - 11/22/01 11:45 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

So your question is whether there is good and evil. This can be answered in a few ways. Firstly: there is no true good and evil! good and evil are completely subjective, if a child was brought up to belive that punching people was a good deed, then he would belive in that as strongly as you would belive that that is evil his judgement of good and evil will be just as valid as yours. Secondly there IS good and evil, because a lot of people are unable to think in abstract (to put it bluntly most ppl are stupid) they have to seperate deeds into two catergories: good/bad. Society desides what is good and bad. For example if the majority of people punched eachother as a good deed, then the few people that refused to punch others would probably be arested and called evil, but it turns out that our society condones punching eachother. So if you want to be led by your society then you would have to obey the society's defenition of good and bad.

I think that seperating things into good/bad, black/white masculine/feminine undermines human's ability to think 'multidimentionally' for example when you think in terms of good and bad, you think in two dimentions. Some people can think in many dimensions for example if you put neutral in between good and bad. that would be thinking in three dimensions, most people think in at least three dimensions also people can easily add dimensions to this formula: Good, Ok, Not Bad, Neutral, Not So Good, Bad, Terrible. I call this grey logic, i.e. you dont think in balck and white logic but can create shades of grey in between Black and White.

Although thinking in gray logic is an improvement on black and white logic (or two dimensional logic), there is still the need for the opposites: good and bad, but the most difficult, abstract way to think is in one dimension. Because you only have lets say neutral, you can be more objective, you can think of things in a non-linear manner, greatly improving your capacity for thought and comunication.

The only time i manage to think in one dimension is either while tripping, meditating or dreaming. I definately think that the next step for human evolution is to learn how to think and comunicate in one dimension. If you think about it, the lack of good and bad would create a world without disagreement, wars and suffering, but also no excitement, enjoyment or hapiness.


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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #466922 - 11/22/01 07:49 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Regardless, good and evil exist simultaneously in all things. It's a matter of perception, really.
If someone were to kill your mom and skin her alive, that would probably be BAD..for you, but what about the person commiting the crime? Perhaps he may think that your mother will one day rise to power and construct a weapon that would destroy all of humanity...and the only way he can stop this is to kill her, so he feels he is doing good.
If someone were to buy me a pasta dinner and cut me a check for $3000, like you said..by most standards that would be considered good. But what if this person has three starving children at home and only enough money to pay the bills...this would be seen as a BAD thing by his wife.
Or how about the holocaust, this was seen as BAD by most of the world...yet at the same time Hitler and his cronies saw what they were doing as a GOOD thing.
Really...it is a matter of who you ask. In this third dimensional world we live in, we fail to see the big picture most of the time. It can be hard to recognize that Good and Evil are one in the same. It's like you are standing in the middle of a yin yang, and if you look one way all you see is black...if you look the other way all you see is white. Yet if you are looking at it from above you see that it is a yin yang, and the black and white are both inside the same circle.


Edited by Shroomism (11/22/01 07:52 PM)


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OfflineTamrylin
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: ]
    #466927 - 11/22/01 07:56 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Good and bad are neither subjective nor whatever. Perception is a weak human ideal. Good and evil are both infinite in everything. You glancec through the doors of perception and see something which you base opinions on and then judge with. Some, as I, will be totally lost but follow a religion as a guide. I, being human, cannot comprehend good or evil but trust that God will let me know. I am not a sheep, i am a small child being led by the hand


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Tamrylin]
    #466946 - 11/22/01 08:26 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I'm seeing some good stuff here... A PRIME example of this is Bush saying "I'm going to rid the world of evil-doers." (an actual quote, though it may have been "we" or something else...) WELL BUSH, here's a pistol loaded with one bullet. GO HARD! heh heh. That is definately not to say that Terrorists are good, or that Bush is the only Bad man in the world... it all depends on whose side you look at it from. I just happen to be blessed (cursed) with a very wide perception, and therefore rarely take sides (when I do, I'm pretty damn sure I've looked at it every possible way...). I think I'd make a good Judge, or juror. (you may not think so, depending on the things I might do in that position. perception.)

You very rarely make a right choice, or a good choice, but if you're lucky it's the lesser of two evils...


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #467007 - 11/22/01 09:45 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

As an observable, physical phenomena, I would say no, good and evil do not exist. As categories that we have created, yes, they exist. We defined them. Some definitions of good and evil, however, may contradict each other.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #467008 - 11/22/01 09:47 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> If I slowly torture you and skin you alive, that is EVIL.

WHY?

Maybe it's good. Maybe it's neither good nor evil.


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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #467032 - 11/22/01 10:12 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

If you were to slowly skin me alive, you might be able to cut a record and sell it in the satanist rings, and make a fortune, then I'd be pissed 'cuz you were a millionare. Bastards!!!

One has to realize that good and evil, as a whole, are the same thing. Not that the two are equal, but that they are the same. I'm confused on how they can be mis-identified as seperate. Even our own physical bodies cannot tell the difference between the two. Our mind and body act in exactly the same physical ways in responce to love, and hate, as well as fear. Same chemicals, same pathways, same physical responces. Increased heart and endocrine rates, increased endorphine levels, sweating, increased epinephrine and nor-epinephrine. Yet somehow we interpret them differently.

So in short, no I don't agree.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #467040 - 11/22/01 10:20 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #467044 - 11/22/01 10:23 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"As an observable, physical phenomena, I would say no, good and evil do not exist. "

I would say if something that leaves a "bad taste" in my mind is evil. If i see a women lying dead in the street who was raped and beaten to death... that would be an evil scene. But, to someone else it might turn them on or something. Its a matter of perception, but everything is. Good and evil are intangible, like spirituality, sexuality, etc. Everyone has a different view on it, and no one is universally right. I think the question is, is anything good or evil to you?


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #467187 - 11/23/01 12:44 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

The two main drives in a human being are sex and aggression also called love and hate or good and evil you can let either way take over the way you think but its only either good or bad to humanity, they are abstract concepts that dont exist outside the human mind


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #467228 - 11/23/01 01:59 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> So, who gets to decide what is good and evil? Obviously the governments of the nations/kingdoms/world do. And so do we as individuals. Now, let's add God into the mix.

Yes, I'd agree. Basically, society as a whole creates what is good or evil. I think evidence supporting this position is that many ideas of good are pro-socially oriented (don't kill; love your neighbor; etc.)

> If God exists and we as individuals can prove it to ourselves, do we take the idea that everything God says is perfectly accurate and His "good" should be followed and what God states is "evil" should not be done

Yes, but of course, that's *IF* God exists, and *IF* you can proove that to yourself, which are two pretty big ifs.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #467229 - 11/23/01 02:01 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> I think the question is, is anything good or evil to you?

To me, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. My perception about such things changes.


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #467239 - 11/23/01 02:16 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Self preservation isn't a major drive of humans?


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: mm.]
    #467254 - 11/23/01 02:32 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I would argue that there is such a thing as absolutes, such as good and evil. I would also argue that much of what's defined as good or evil has no such value and is in fact neutral. Not everything is good or evil, yet since people like to categorize everything they have to give a value to nearly all things. Murder is universally condemned when commited by a person(even war is often considered a "necessary evil"), this does not seem to apply to states the same way since they are a collective(generally working for what they think is the "common good"). Take the act of Sept 11, every government in the world condemned it(even Iraq who absolutely hates the US; not Saddam, Iraq). I would argue that any individual forcing his/her will on anyone else without the others permission is evil. Anything else might be defined as wrong, but I wouldn't consider it to fall into the category of evil. I would also futher argue that any form of self-sacrifice that goes against human nature's drive for self preservation is good. Anything else might be defined as right, but I wouldn't consider it to fall into the category of good. Of course, I believe in the idea of absolutes and these are of course opinions that I doubt any of us could prove one way or another.


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #467265 - 11/23/01 02:55 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Aggression and love are for self preservation, aggression helps you defend yourself and your offspring, sex passes on your genes


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Offlinelautir777_666
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #467486 - 11/23/01 11:17 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Thinking...

God came into the discussion at some point. If there is a God and it gave us free will, as we are taught, then why would God interact with "us" at all. For any interaction would assume influence and therefore negate the potential to choose of one's own accord. This would also rule out the fallacy of judgment by some divine essence. If judgment were to be a reality, then it would hinder the ability to assert free will. One would be making decisions based on conditioning and negative reinforcement. That is not free will.
So if the individual possesses free will, then "good" or "evil" would purely be a subjective ascription of meaning.
Nonetheless, "good" and "evil" are simply synonyms for "this" and "that"...the recognition of opposite extremities. The delineation of categories appears to perpetuate the mundane. Opposite extremities are arbitrary conjurings. Engage the undivided whole.
I am.
Self preservation was mentioned along with the sex/aggression belief. Why would a being be concerned with self preservation if it is existing within infinity? It will always be despite any conjecture put forth by the individual human mind. The want to bridle these concepts and make them facilitate an end can be an anchor.
An aspect of the human condition once conveyed to me, "...the sage concentrateth upon one Will, and it is as a light to the whole world."
Let us collectively embrace the next cycle; a different alignment that may harbor no thought at all.


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? ciaofi od rit comselha v manin de iad ?


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #467873 - 11/23/01 10:25 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Well, rape is considered sex, and it was the most widespread form of sex in many barbaric cultures. Does that make it a good thing?


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #467899 - 11/23/01 10:46 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

no human would believe rape is a good thing.
There are exceptions but in general what i said before is how it works i think or do you think overall sex is a bad thing?


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #467966 - 11/23/01 11:33 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468003 - 11/24/01 12:25 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Ya, I hate when your posts get deleted... especially long ones.

Anyhow, I recently told one of my friends that "you haven't lived until you've dug up a body." or something like that. I wasn't takling about necrophelia or anything, just diggin it up. He's not a very good person, but he thought that was pretty evil, and he shared that opinion with me very strongly. We didn't really reach an agreement about this being right or wrong, he just insisted I was a freak. (He was the one singing along to the headstones song: "I went down to the cemetary, lookin for love. Got there but my baby was buried, had to dig her up...")


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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468012 - 11/24/01 12:55 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #468043 - 11/24/01 01:35 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I think what he's saying is that the same physical act in a different context can change your perception of the act.

Take, killing a human being.

Killing a human being in war to save civilians would be considered by many/most, as good.

Killing a little old lady walking down the street at night on her way to see her granchildren would be considered evil by most.

The physical acts are the same: killing a person. The situation surrounding the events is completely different.


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #468098 - 11/24/01 03:03 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

There are beliefs on murder that all established cultures share-

Killing within your own community has not been exceptable in any culture that has survived for long because if it was exceptable they would wipe themselves out very quickly.

I dont think any mentally healthy person sees killing as good maybe they see it as necessary in some situations but how often do you hear about soldiers who have killed that suffer deep psycological damage after murdering? its not beneficial to the individual or the community unless its the only option when trying to protect your community from enemies


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #468288 - 11/24/01 10:45 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

We percieve reallity through subjective pathways. So, everything is subjective in some way.

I developed good / bad idea, using some "axioms" (wich are trully subjective off course) That means that we as a human beings in this world have a mission here. We have to live! We have to win over ourselves. Something as a superman. Anything that causes us going toward that goal is good, and anything that disturbs as in that way is bad.



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OfflineKeepAskingTime
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Crobih]
    #468326 - 11/24/01 11:56 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I like your thought Crobih. I agree.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #468572 - 11/24/01 05:59 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Kid, that was more or less it. ;)
Dude, I said it wasn't necrophelia, and I didn't mention killing or eating a human, just diggin'. heh heh. I haven't dug up a body though.
If you're going to dig up a body, check the obituary. Make sure it's fairly recent, and natural causes would be best. There you go, a body in this condition shouldn't be too disturbing, should it? Ah hah hahah!
"Was he serious?"
"He was kidding, right...?"
I'll never tell...


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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468612 - 11/24/01 06:53 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Crobih]
    #468645 - 11/24/01 07:53 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I wont forgive


Edited by missulena (11/24/01 08:32 PM)


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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #468663 - 11/24/01 08:14 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? *DELETED* [Re: World Spirit]
    #468675 - 11/24/01 08:37 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #468677 - 11/24/01 08:41 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: World Spirit]
    #468694 - 11/24/01 09:21 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)



oh shit...sorry about that enter

im gonna do a runner now
see ya


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #468726 - 11/24/01 10:08 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> There are beliefs on murder that all established cultures share-

Murder is a definition of killing based on a context: Murder IS the ***WRONGFUL*** killing of a human being. By definition murder is wrong. Killing is not wrong by definition. For something to be murder, it MUST be wrong. To be killing, it doesn't have to be wrong (but can be).

> Killing within your own community has not been exceptable in any culture

What about capital punishment? Or ritual sacrifice? Some cultures used to kill thousands of their own.

> I dont think any mentally healthy person sees killing as good maybe they see it as necessary in some situations but how often do you hear about soldiers who have killed that suffer deep psycological damage after murdering?

You hear about it, but it wouldn't be news to say that soldier X killed people and now he's fine.

> its not beneficial to the individual or the community unless its the only option when trying to protect your community from enemies

You can make a case for any kind of killing (see above: killing criminals and sacrificing to gods).


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #468753 - 11/24/01 10:38 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Those are some good points kid, though I do consider captial punishment wrong... Give me a life sentance though and I might be asking for capital punishment one day.

I like the fact that you're trying to prove that things can't be proved one way or the other. ;) heh heh. This applies to many people here, as well as myself.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Ulysees]
    #468918 - 11/25/01 01:57 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> I like the fact that you're trying to prove that things can't be proved one way or the other. ;)

That's exactly what I like about nihilism. It denies it's own existence. ;-) It's self-contradictory. The ultimate in being unsure, admitting "I don't know" by saying "I know that's not right because I also know this." Knowledge systems tear each other apart.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #468944 - 11/25/01 02:21 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

^ that sums it up.


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: missulena]
    #469304 - 11/25/01 02:47 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Well, a thousand years ago most people had little objection to raping "others" (people of different religions/nationalities). They sure were human.

As for sex, I think having sex with someone you are just using is wrong, but if you both have mutual feelings about it, its fine.

And the thing about soldiers having mental problems... I think most of there problems come from the fact that they came so close to dying and were so scared, not that they killed people. Most soldiers have no problem killing until they get back to the civilised world, because they jut don't understand how to get back to "normal". And, then there conscious starts catching up with them. If you live your whole life as an animal, you probably would have no objection to acting like an animal. Just look at the terrorists from Afghanistan, they sure felt they were doing good crashing into those buildings. Christians used to execute pagans by the hundreds because they would not renounce there religions. Few people had any objections to this, but if it happened today I'm sure there would be plenty.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: MrKurtz]
    #469394 - 11/25/01 04:20 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Ya... I'd forgotten about the "Dark Ages" too... That was a time where there seemed to be very little "good and evil" and like you said, they were human beings too... People will do what people will do, and if they jusify it, they will have no problems doing it.


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Offlinemissulena
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #469688 - 11/26/01 12:14 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah they were good points kid


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Offlinemissulena
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Re: Is there good? Is there evil? [Re: Kid]
    #469723 - 11/26/01 01:16 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I said murder is only acceptable in mostcultures when killing the enemy e.g criminals on death row(the act of killing is not seen as good in such a society i dont think, thats why its used as punishment and im sure the majority of people in those kinds of societies would rather the criminals behaved so that they didnt have to kill them) and i also said there is exceptions.




Edited by missulena (11/26/01 01:50 AM)


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