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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4656952 -

I'm fine with democracy. We do have checks and balances. If SCOTUS can't do it's job, well then, I rest the blame there. However, I do agree it should be at least slightly harder to pass legislation.

The majority of people are idiots... eh, I don't know about that. I mean, relative to who? I'm of average intelligence. A lot of people on this board probably have IQs hovering around 100 (yeah, I'm not sure if it means much, but what else have we got?)... If not by a mob of idiots, then how should our executives be chosen?

Times change. Norms change. Populations change. It's not all that easy to find 'basic laws' everyone can agree on. Look at almost any political forum on the net, including this one. Different governments are required of different people. Today, the US needs it's capitalism, Norway needs its socialism, and much of the Mid East probably needs its Islam. Now, should 51% of the US population get to radically change our way of life and business? No, I don' think so. But a consistent 80%? 90%? 99%? I think there comes a point when the wheels start to fall off.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4656972 -

"Democratic institutions are quarantine arrangements to combat that ancient pestilence, lust for tyranny: as such they are very useful and very boring."
-Nietzsche

Democracies usually have a slow decay and often a slow rise because everybody in them is given the right to battle each other, and they exercise this right continuously. All the political powers push against each other, overall slowing down both the decline and growth of the nation.

A dictatorship, on the other hand, is speeded up many times over. A dictator can be many times more effective at growth, technology, science and military operations for obvious reasons, but because of the speed of a dictatorship, it can also slip into tyranny or failure much more easily than a democracy. For stability, a democracy is by the far the best form of government, but that's for stability only; for mostly everything else, there are better potential governments than a democracy.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Gijith]
    #4657036 -

Gijith said:
I'm of average intelligence.


I'd contest that. Not to massage your ego or anything, but of all the left-wing members of this forum, I'd say you're one of the most intelligent and independent thinkers.

Quote:
A lot of people on this board probably have IQs hovering around 100 (yeah, I'm not sure if it means much, but what else have we got?)...


While we get a few idiots here and there, I've found Shroomerites in general to be of higher intelligence than the general population(though my opinion of that might change if I hung out in OTD more often).

Quote:
If not by a mob of idiots, then how should our executives be chosen?


I'm not saying that there can't be any democratic institutions. I'm just saying that the extent of power that voters and politicians alike can exercise should be severely limited.

Quote:
Times change. Norms change. Populations change. It's not all that easy to find 'basic laws' everyone can agree on. Look at almost any political forum on the net, including this one. Different governments are required of different people. Today, the US needs it's capitalism, Norway needs its socialism, and much of the Mid East probably needs its Islam. Now, should 51% of the US population get to radically change our way of life and business? No, I don' think so. But a consistent 80%? 90%? 99%? I think there comes a point when the wheels start to fall off.


First of all, can we all agree that murder and theft are wrong, and should be illegal? Let's start at that, and work our way from there. I think that the more a law restricts one's freedom(and by freedom, I mean the ability to peacefully do as one wishes), the greater majority of votes should be required for it to pass.


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Gijith]
    #4657127 -

Gijith said:
A lot of people on this board probably have IQs hovering around 100


97 here.

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Gijith]
    #4657211 -

Gijith writes:

Quote:
However, I do agree it should be at least slightly harder to pass legislation.


Libertarian radio talk show host Neal Boortz (co-author of "The Fair Tax Book") believes that every bill passed by the House and Senate should include the following -- signed by every legislator who voted for it:

"The undersigned sponsors of the foregoing legislation do hereby state and affirm their belief that it is more important for the federal government to spend the funds necessary for the implementation of this legislation than it would be for the taxpayer who actually worked for and earned these funds to retain them for use in caring for and investing in the future of their own families."

His belief is that if they were required to do this they would pass a lot less useless legislation. I believe he is giving politicians waaaaay more credit for having a sense of shame than the record indicates. It would still be cool to make that paragraph a requirement on every bill passed, though.




Phred


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4657250 -

Democracy works only when the people partaking of it recognize that responsibilities accompany their rights and freedoms. In an ideal society, we wouldn't need speed limits and people would just operate their vehicles in a manner that was safe. People could own any firearm or weapon that they wanted and they'd understand that part of this right was the implied responsibility that they don't hurt others The biggest impediment to a free society in a democratic system is the morons that abuse their rights.

If people desired a government that simply guaranteed their basic rights and allowed the individual to do what they pleased (without hurting anyone else, or impinging upon their rights), a democracy would be great. However, when democracy simply translates into "mob rule", the majority can decide to do nothing and leech off of the majority. A democracy where the majority of the people are uneducated, lazy and apathetic will quickly fall apart.


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"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4658659 -

Paradigm said:
I'd contest that.  Not to massage your ego or anything, but of all the left-wing members of this forum, I'd say you're one of the most intelligent and independent thinkers.


Appreciated, for sure. But yeah, no massaging necessary. If anything, a good kick in the teeth would do it well... I guess what I'm saying is that the average person can easily be both very smart and very dumb, depending on the issue. I came here to learn, and I think I've done okay. But if this were a forum on economics or engineering or wine making, I'd come off as the biggest dunce you ever encountered. Surely, medical doctors aren't stupid, but, if I'm not mistaken, the majority of them want pot to remain illegal. John Lennon had some brilliant ideas, but rejected human evolution on the fact  that "monkeys aren't turning into humans today." A friend of mine in the math department is trying to use game theory to make predictive models of ecological relationships involving hundreds of species, but if he had to invest in the stock market, he'd lose every cent..... Obviously, this has been proposed before, but if we could come up with a system where people could contribute to democracy, so long as they had basic knowledge of the topic at hand, I think it would be worth a look.

Paradigm said:
First of all, can we all agree that murder and theft are wrong, and should be illegal?  Let's start at that, and work our way from there.  I think that the more a law restricts one's freedom(and by freedom, I mean the ability to peacefully do as one wishes), the greater majority of votes should be required for it to pass.


Well, there's always abortion for starters. Many libertarians are fine with endorsing revenge killing (the death penalty). The Eskimos practiced infanticide. Not because they wanted to, but because they probably had to if they wanted their societies to survive. Look at the mess that became of that Natural Rights Thread to End All Natural Rights Threads (sorry, in too much of a hurry to link it). When you get down to it, all these philosophical 'why are we here' questions start popping up. Admittedly, in that thread, I bit off a bit more philosophy than I could chew... For the record, outside of a clearly defined state of  emergency, I think that murder should be against the rules.

As far as theft... well, I don't know all that much about copyright laws, but I do know that they are very hazy in certain areas and always in a state of change.

And as for bill passage being based on its limiting of freedom, I think that's very interesting. Now how would we rate legislation? Some sort of point system? If it could be done properly, I might be down with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

RandalFlagg said:
97 here


There we go. I wouldn't want to live in a society where Randal was locked out of the process... If I remember right, mine's 103.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Phred said:
Libertarian radio talk show host Neal Boortz (co-author of "The Fair Tax Book") believes that every bill passed by the House and Senate should include the following -- signed by every legislator who voted for it:

"The undersigned sponsors of the foregoing legislation do hereby state and affirm their belief that it is more important for the federal government to spend the funds necessary for the implementation of this legislation than it would be for the taxpayer who actually worked for and earned these funds to retain them for use in caring for and investing in the future of their own families."

His belief is that if they were required to do this they would pass a lot less useless legislation. I believe he is giving politicians waaaaay more credit for having a sense of shame than the record indicates. It would still be cool to make that paragraph a requirement on every bill passed, though.


Hell yeah it would.  :thumbup:


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4660286 -

zappaisgod said:
I don't think you know the mind of the people quite as well as you think you do. Pauline Kael, famous elitist twat, said it best, about Nixon I think, "How could he have won, nobody I know voted for him." The level of intellectual incest on the left is staggering. They can't even tell why they lost. Which is a good thing. If they can't recognize the problem they can't fix it and will thus flail away in the tarpits of their own myopia.

(That was fucking brilliant, "tarpits of their own myopia". I get better every day)


I don't know the mind of the people? I know the river in egypt is named denial right? You think this govt cares about the people? My ass! They care about the rich corperation fat cats that give them millions to run for election. That is who they cater to and that is what democracy means this day and age. Who ever gives the elected officals the most cash gets their needs addressed, those who don't get to watch as our nation gets run into the ground.

Those who don't make up at least half the population or more. There is alot of people who do not vote. Simply because they know that no matter who is running for office, there is nothing that person is going to do to help them. Since both choices are in the pockets of big business, who ever you vote for will represent those who paid for their election costs. There is no more representation of the people, we have been left behind.


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660312 -

America is made up of two distinct parts.

Eurocrap-wannabes and American patriots!


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: looner2]
    #4660384 -

I smells something...

Looner I think it's time to empty your bulldog's litter box.


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: looner2]
    #4660893 -

looner2 said:
America is made up of two distinct parts.

Eurocrap-wannabes and American patriots!


What about those of us who are critical of both the European and American systems?


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Gijith]
    #4661526 -

Gijith said:
RandalFlagg said:
97 here


There we go. I wouldn't want to live in a society where Randal was locked out of the process... If I remember right, mine's 103.



Actually, I threw the 97 out there because I didn't want to make anybody feel inferior.  In reality, my IQ is approximately 31% higher than yours.

What's up dummy?  :drool2:

:grin:

Seriously, most IQ tests that I have seen are bullshit.  They want you to pick out some obscure and pointless pattern or they want you to make a correlation between several things where there could be more than one right answer.

I respect actual accomplishment and the intellect that one exhibits more than a score on some test.

Edited by RandalFlagg (09/14/05 06:16 PM)

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4661530 -

Vex said:
it worked fine until mass media came along.


Sycronica said:
Democracy now means controlled by big business. The people lost all controll years ago.


I agree with these statements, for the most part. The largest problem I see right now is simply that the means by which people get their information is controlled by the very same interests who are looking to push forth an agenda. Forget about right vs. left bias, that kind of misses the point. It's more that people have gotten used to being spoonfed information that they don't realize the source of it isn't always accurate.


Democracy is a wonderful thing, at least compared to the other major forms of government. The problem is that people learn to how gain control over it through fear and manipulation. The fatal flaw of Democracy is that people put too much faith in the rhetorical use of the word and can't see when they're being mislead.

So here's the big question; what alternative form of government is better than Democracy? I don't have an answer, at least not considering where the world is right now.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4661542 -

RandalFlagg said:
Gijith said:
RandalFlagg said:
97 here


There we go. I wouldn't want to live in a society where Randal was locked out of the process... If I remember right, mine's 103.



Actually, I threw the 97 out there because I didn't want to make anybody feel inferior.  In reality, my IQ is approximately 31% higher than yours.

What's up dummy?  :drool2:

:grin:

Seriously, most IQ tests that I have seen are bullshit.  They want you to pick out some obscure and pointless pattern or they want you to make a correlation between several things where there could be more than one right answer.

I respect actual accomplishment and the intellect that one exhibits more than a score on some test.


I think Gijith lied too.


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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Twirling]
    #4665855 -

Quote:
So here's the big question; what alternative form of government is better than Democracy? I don't have an answer, at least not considering where the world is right now.


Here's a better form: Take all of the money away from the people that govern. Create a world where there is no profit to making policy descisions. Require anyone that is a practicing lawyer to take so many charity cases a year. Give them a quota. And set up review boards to make sure they treat every case as if it was their richest client. If the justice system is unfair your entire society slides downhill. That is exactly what is happening.

Make all the election money be equally distributed. Give every person running for office equal commercial air time. Make them answer UNSCRIPTED questions as to why they should be allowed to govern us. Make them answer call in questions from ANY citizen. No more of this scripted bullshit. Is this real life or a fucking broadway play?

There is a few ideas to make our govt better. And of course end the war on drugs (society).


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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Re: What's your view on democracy? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4666195 -

Under this brilliant system only janitors would run for office. And given the fact that they would all get money to run equally, every janitor would run, if only for meal money. Shit plain stupid idea. Keep trying.


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