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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660368 - 09/14/05 02:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If the money pissed away invading Iraq had been spent delivering aid starvation in Africa would have already been eradicated.

However, there is no profit in it.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660376 - 09/14/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Western countries have been giving aid for DECADES and the third world is still messed up. It is not for lack of money or donations, just throwing money and free food at the problem does not address the underlying causes which are systemic and cultural.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Alex213]
    #4660389 - 09/14/05 02:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If the money pissed away invading Iraq had been spent delivering aid starvation in Africa would have already been eradicated.



Money spent on Iraq has nothing to do with the underlying problems facing Africa.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4660398 - 09/14/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sure Africa is still messed up. We're not talking about solving every problem in Africa - just ending starvation.

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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4660406 - 09/14/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Money doesn't fix underlying problems? Wasn't saddam's WMD an underlying problem?

Commonman money can't fix all of lives problems, but govt billions can.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Alex213]
    #4660407 - 09/14/05 02:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Starvation is an ongoing problem. In order to solve it you must address the underlying causes. Throwing money at it continually is addressing the symptoms and it can reasonably be argued that it exacerbates the problems by relieving those in positions of authority of the burden of making fundamental changes.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660422 - 09/14/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Money doesn't fix underlying problems?



No.

Quote:

Wasn't saddam's WMD an underlying problem?



What does this have to do with the current discussion?

Quote:

Commonman money can't fix all of lives problems, but govt billions can.



Prove it. Years and years of throwing money at the problem STILL has not solved it, yet you somehow believe that this time it will be different? Come on, man.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4660428 - 09/14/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Billions of dollars can put men on the moon and in space, yet can't even feed people right here on earth? I just can't buy into that. If you can build giant nuclear power plants and huge hydro electric dams and many of the other giant marvels we have built, how can putting food consititantly in starving peoples mouths be so freaking hard?

Saddam's fictitious WMD is just an example of us throwing money at an "underlying" problem to fix it. Since you claim underlying problems cannot be fixed by money.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

Edited by Sycronica (09/14/05 02:23 PM)

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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660698 - 09/14/05 03:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Dude - you have no idea how fucked up even the good African governments are.

I have a few freinds who are refugees from Tanzania (from the islands of Zanizibar). They never were hungry growing up - there's too much food just lying around waiting to be picked up - but when they protested rigged elections, the police shot their freinds dead. Inches of blood flowed in the streets - and you're telling me that these people would refrain from stealing resources just because other people are starving to death?

No shit - the police in many of these countries are just robbers with guns; they don't give a shit about people. In many of the more fucked up countries, the situation is complicated by tribal rivalries. To you, the cop and the starving family might all just be niggers, but their ansestors were enimies long before the Jews were taken to Egypt.


The simple fact is that we don't have influence in those countries. Most of the money we send there will be stolen, starving people or no.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4660808 - 09/14/05 03:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
So money doesn't buy food?



It does, but getting it to the population is another matter. Sending food aid only puts Third World farmers out of business, making them worse off than before.

Quote:

There are very few govts who would actually take the food and deprive their people of it.



Depriving the people of food has nothing to do with it. There is enough food in those countries for everyone to eat. The problem is that many people do not have the money to feed themselves. While flooding the market with food makes it cheaper for those who have money, it also destroys the main source of income in many of these countries--farming. African farmers already have enough trouble competing against subsidized American agriculture. If we just give it away to those countries for free, we're completely ruining their livelihood. The point is not to have enough food to feed them, but having enough capital to make a living.

Quote:

I think that is a sterotype we have about 3rd world countries. We think their govts are all corrupt so therefore we should just let them rot. Fact is there is MUCH more to it than that. Our govt wants the world in the condition it is in. It works in their favor to keep them at the top. They could end world hunger, maybe not in every single country, but in over 99% of them. And when the countries that block aid see how we have helped other countries with "just food" they would soon open up for us too.



You have an extremely distorted and uninformed view of economics. Sending food does not help Third World farmers. It destroys their livelihood.

Quote:

But it's never going to happen, cuz the old white hairs in congress think the only way they can change the world is by bombing it into submission.



No, it's never going to happen because it's a stupid fucking idea.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Alex213]
    #4660875 - 09/14/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If the money pissed away invading Iraq had been spent delivering aid starvation in Africa would have already been eradicated.

However, there is no profit in it.




Trip on, my merry friend. Do you know what a petri dish is? It's a laboratory device that is basicly a flat shallow bowl. If you put a nutrient in it bacteria will colonize it until the nutrients are exhausted. Then the last generation will starve. Until the people who live in Africa, and some other places, control reproduction they will always starve. That is all. If we send money, it is stolen; if we send food, it is stolen. They are as reliant on their native foodstuffs as any cheetah. Just say no to babies.


--------------------

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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4661074 - 09/14/05 04:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's a good idea to feed starving people. And I think most of the reasons givin here, while valid, are meer excuses. These problems can be overcome, if someone puts in the time and effort AND has the money to back it. But we'll never know because we are so stuck in one way of thinking about the issue.

Sending a man to the moon has GOT to be harder than feeding starving people. If you can do one, you can do the other. It's just a matter of WANTING to do the other.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4661159 - 09/14/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You are correct in saying they can be overcome. I sincerely doubt if you would be willing to accede to the necessary means by which they can be overcome, which would involve a wholesale invasion by humans of their subhuman thug leaders.

Colin Powell, Emperor of Africa. Until something like that happens, and I do mean Emperor and he/she must be black, there is no chance. Just say "no" to babies.


--------------------

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4661250 - 09/14/05 05:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Africans don't need food and money sent over there as much as they need our agricultural subsidies to end and for someone to teach them agricultural proficiency.

It's the whole "give a man a fish or teach him to fish" idea.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4662109 - 09/14/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Africans don't need food and money sent over there as much as they need our agricultural subsidies to end and for someone to teach them agricultural proficiency.






Looks like you agree with George W. Bush on this point then.



From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_o...DMzBHNlYwM3MDM-





Bush Urges End of Trade Tariffs, Subsidies

By TERENCE HUNT
AP White House Correspondent


UNITED NATIONS - Saying poverty breeds terrorism and despair, President Bush challenged world leaders on Wednesday to abolish all trade tariffs and subsidies ? worth hundreds of billions of dollars ? to promote prosperity and opportunity in struggling nations.

-------------------------------------------

Bush's call to eliminate all trade barriers would essentially create a worldwide free trade zone, something that goes far beyond the goals of the 148 countries who are seeking to wrap up a new round of trade liberalization talks known as the Doha Round, for the city in Qatar where the talks were launched in late 2001.

Those discussions, which have a more limited agenda of simply reducing current trade barriers, are currently stalled. Officials are worried that an upcoming December meeting in Hong Kong could fail to make progress in such key areas as reducing barriers that rich countries have erected to protect their farmers. Poor nations see a reduction in farm subsidies as key to making their farm goods competitive on global markets.

Saying that the Doha negotiations would eliminate farm subsidies, Bush said, "Today I broaden the challenge by making this pledge: The United States is ready to eliminate all tariffs, subsidies and other barriers to free flow of goods and services as other nations do the same. This is key to overcoming poverty in the world's poorest nations. It's essential we promote prosperity and opportunity for all nations."

------------------------------------------------



Phred


--------------------

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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Phred]
    #4662196 - 09/14/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with Bush's words; however I think they might not fully represent his viewpoint (the cynical bastard).

"Today I broaden the challenge by making this pledge: The United States is ready to eliminate all tariffs, subsidies and other barriers to free flow of goods and services as other nations do the same."

As Bush well knows, it'll be a cold day in hell before his bluff is called.

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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4662234 - 09/14/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And what would the richest superpower look like if it WASN'T the biggest contributor of aid? We have the most money duh. We don't do it cuz we're nice, we do it cuz we're rich. Big difference.




Bullshit. The US doesn't have to do anything; for all I care, the rest of the countries can rot in their own grave without the US giving aid. It's up to those countries to fund themselves, not to fall back on the US for help.

Quote:

I get so sick of people trying to say how great this country is by using money for aid as an example. We have spent enough money in iraq to end world hunger for over 7 years. If you can end world hunger why not fucking do it? But no, we only spend endless amounts of cash on military which is doing nothing more than pissing off the rest of the world with it's adventures. Great future for our kids to have the rest of the world resenting them. But who cares what the world thinks? We are america! ya! Give us your oil and shut the hell up!




How would ending world hunger help the US?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Phred]
    #4662241 - 09/14/05 08:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Africans don't need food and money sent over there as much as they need our agricultural subsidies to end and for someone to teach them agricultural proficiency.




Looks like you agree with George W. Bush on this point then.





Hey, you know I don't disagree with him on everything. I supported his idea of privatization of social security as well.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4662307 - 09/14/05 08:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

his idea of privatization of social security as well.




And look where that bullshit posturing went.

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Best government on earth? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4662618 - 09/14/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Billions of dollars can put men on the moon and in space, yet can't even feed people right here on earth?



Years and years of throwing money at the problem STILL has not solved it, yet you somehow believe that this time it will be different? What do you call someone who continues the same course of action year after year after year with the same outcome year after year after year, and yet expects a different outcome?

Quote:

If you can build giant nuclear power plants and huge hydro electric dams and many of the other giant marvels we have built, how can putting food consititantly in starving peoples mouths be so freaking hard?



The point is that THEY KEEP ON STARVING BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CHANGE THEIR WAYS. Nuclear power plants and hydro-electric dams would never have materialized if people didn't study the problems and take actions which were not taken before. Do you think money and the same damn building technology of beavers would have created the Hoover damn, or was there something more than just throwing money and continuing with the old ways of doing things?

Quote:

Saddam's fictitious WMD is just an example of us throwing money at an "underlying" problem to fix it.



What are you talking about. There were NO WMDs and this has nothing to do with Africa, get it?

Quote:

Since you claim underlying problems cannot be fixed by money.



The problem is not money, IT IS SYSTEMIC (with their governments) AND CULTURAL. If money can solve everything wouldn't the 'War on Poverty' instituted by LBJ have eliminated poverty in the U.S.? Wouldn't the increasing spending on public education have not only increased test scores but made for a better educated public? Wouldn't cancer be history? Wouldn't the 'War on Drugs' have been won?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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