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InvisibleDiploidM
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Where Do Dead Bees Go?
    #4652853 - 09/13/05 12:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Consider a bee with a few million or so neurons in its brain. It's born with the hard-wired neural mechanisms for its function in the hive. It's also born with the neural mechanisms required for learning. This is much like how a human baby is born with the instinct to suck and the ability to learn.

In the course of its life, a bee does the job hard-wired into its neurons (collecting nectar), but it also learns the locations of new nectar sources. In fact, the bee brain is so good at learning that when a worker bee finds a new source of nectar, it teaches the other workers the location through an elaborate dance.

Now an interesting question:

If I squashed a worker bee who had just discovered a new source of nectar, where does the knowledge/learning that its brain contained go once its brain is destroyed?

Follow up:

If a human's brain is destroyed, doesn't it follow that the same thing happens?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/13/05 01:32 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4652890 - 09/13/05 12:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Both humans and bees are only around 5,000 years old though. The difference is that humans were graced with souls, but bees are just machines with no soul and no free will.

So the bee's information would obviously dissipate, just like a piece of wood being burned in the fire and turning to ashes, but for a human the soul would carry all the knowledge, actions and personality of the person into the Great Beyond, where the soul will then be whipped by dominatrixes, or, if they were bad, burned for all eternity.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4652924 - 09/13/05 12:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Have you ever found a dead bee hanging from a flower stalk?
What's that about?


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4652928 - 09/13/05 12:31 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You want us to find the nectar for you? Try Hedonism II...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleindica
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Swami]
    #4652988 - 09/13/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How dare you say bees are machines!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653018 - 09/13/05 12:41 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I do not believe in the continuity of memory after death, but I do believe in the continuity of consciousness. Exactly what that consciousness percieves after death I can't articulate.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4653063 - 09/13/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Do you believe a bee is conscious? How about a chimp?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/13/05 12:54 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4653081 - 09/13/05 12:48 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If humans are chemicals developed by natural selection, and consciousness is contained in a certain ordering of these chemicals, then why would consciousness continue to persist after the order of the chemicals is annihilated?

Do you believe consciousness is separate from the chemicals?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653103 - 09/13/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you believe a bee in conscious? How about a chimp?



I believe consciousness to be a property of the universe itself. Subjective perception, however, is limited to the living.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4653190 - 09/13/05 01:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Alright... do you believe the universe is a single consciousness or a conglomerate of individual consciousnesses?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653331 - 09/13/05 01:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Alright... do you believe the universe is a single consciousness or a conglomerate of individual consciousnesses?



I see it as something like a web structure. There are individual axes in the web(representing individual consciousness), but they are all connected in a vast, interconnected web of consciousness. An axis may go away, but the web remains.

That's about the best metaphor I can come up with.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4653348 - 09/13/05 01:21 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

And why do you think this? You seem like a logical person, yet there is no evidence for consciousness existing in such a nature to my knowledge, so where does the idea originate for you?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653431 - 09/13/05 01:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i think im coming to the shitty conclusion that there is no afterlife. it just doesnt make sense.

here is what i was wondering the other day. you know how they say dmt gets released at death? well thats all well and good if u die normal. but what about if u die in a way that mutilates your brain (car crash, bomb, gun shot, etc..). there wouldnt be anytime for dmt to release.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Ravus]
    #4653442 - 09/13/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Despite my strong support for science and reason, I do believe that there are truths in the universe which cannot be discovered through scientific inquiry. I am not a materialist. My source for this idea about consciousness is all intuitive, or what some might call "gnosis." Perhaps it's simply from doing too many psychedelics, but this is an idea I've had for a while, and have explored it through meditation and conceptualizing.


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Invisiblefinding_self
Stranger
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 489
so [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4653446 - 09/13/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by FunMatic<p>Reason for deletion:.


Edited by finding_self (04/18/06 09:37 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: finding_self]
    #4653500 - 09/13/05 01:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

what if conciousness is all that exists? you can say "what evidence do you have" but why do you want evidence? what evidence do you have that anything exists at all? absolutely NONE, only your direct experience of existance. turn your mind inward and enquire to whom the experiences are occuring and maybe you will see that the screen and objects which appear on it are one. being able to use your own inner ability to discern truth is more important than memorizing scientific truth when it comes to understanding what you are experiencing. a day will come when you will forget all conceptual knowledge.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653807 - 09/13/05 04:02 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How about a chimp?

No, Bush is clearly not conscious.  :crazy:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4653825 - 09/13/05 04:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

A dead bee goes to the Great Hive In The Sky. After that he loses all individuality and becomes God. Then he reincarnates just like us so that the Cosmos shall never bee without bees.

If a bee who discovered nectar dies, the knowledge goes back to where it came: the fabric of the universe.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4654253 - 09/13/05 11:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you believe a bee is conscious? How about a chimp?




Yes and yes, though obviously not "conscious" in a purely human sense.

I don't think there is any true dividing line, either, between "human consciousness" and "animal consciousness" - we only think of a line being there because there is a fair gap between even the highest of animals and humans. Chimps are very intelligent and quite conscious...but they still obviously lack something that we humans have. On the other hand a chimp is much closer to human consciousness than, say, an iguana.

I think that what we commonly think of as "consciousness" - as expressed in humans - is merely an advanced form of awareness (and in humans at least includes a highly developed self-awareness). Much of it is undoubtedly genetic in origin, but as you point out learning is possible in most organisms so at least part of how we are "conscious" comes from what we learn during development. I think if a human were somehow marooned on another planet right from birth, with no other contact with other humans, by the time it was an adult it's form of "consciousness" would be far different from our own! Take a look at feral children, for a more down to Earth example - in some cases their expression of consciousness is vastly abnormal to most humans (I wonder, do they really think they are dogs before found?).

So yes, a bee is conscious...just not as conscious as a human :wink:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Where Do Dead Bees Go? [Re: Diploid]
    #4654266 - 09/13/05 11:34 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Goes in the trash, or outside..! :smile:


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