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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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humans as intelligent designers
    #4645270 - 09/11/05 11:11 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

A question to all of you who consider the idea of ID to be unscientific


Let's say in the future humans make AI and populate an empty planet with intelligent machines and leave them there.

years after, the machines are making new machines (their way of breeding) and so on, and they have their own science for figuring stuff out like how to imporove themselfs, figuring how nature works etc. And the question pops out, "how were we created"?

Should they as scientists consider the idea, that they were made by someone, unscientific?
And why is that?

What advice would you give them in their search for their origins?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGomp
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4645326 - 09/11/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

find a mirror..


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646316 - 09/11/05 04:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Should they as scientists consider the idea, that they were made by someone, unscientific?

Their scientists wouldn't waste their time on wild unsupported speculation. If they did, they would never make progress because as soon as one scientist suggests they were made by humans who are not in evidence, another will say they were sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkelseizure, and yet another will say they were hatched from a giant egg, and so on forever.

It's more productive to look at the available evidence and hope to some day find the tell-tale sign of a creator, or evidence that there was no creator and the universe simply always existed and never didn't exist.

Summary: just because you don't know something (the origin of the universe) does not make it magic, all it makes it is currently-unknown.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: Diploid]
    #4646504 - 09/11/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"It's more productive to look at the available evidence and hope to some day find the tell-tale sign of a creator, or evidence that there was no creator and the universe simply always existed and never didn't exist."

Would this be so hard to put in a textbook?

Isn't what you said above more openminded and productive than:

"evolution is the only possible way life came to existence, those who consider that they may be other possibilities are insane, and are an enemy to science"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646570 - 09/11/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Would this be so hard to put in a textbook?

You don't put theology in a biology textbook for the same reason you don't have a genetics chapter in the World Religions text. Theology is a different class. Besides, a mention is not what ID proponents (and the Kansas school board) wants. They want full-on equal time coverage making ID half the biology curriculum.

evolution is the only possible way life came to existence, those who consider that they may be other possibilities are insane, and are an enemy to science

No reputable scientist says that, and if you're referring to Richard Dawkins' essay in the "Ignorance: God's Gift To Kansas" thread, he's referring to those ID proponents who DELIBERATELY misquote and quote out of context to back their agenda.

Calling someone who uses lies to discredit science is justifiably called an enemy of science. :shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646602 - 09/11/05 05:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

what do you mean by unscientific?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: Diploid]
    #4646642 - 09/11/05 05:53 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Would this be so hard to put in a textbook?

You don't put theology in a biology textbook for the same reason you don't have a genetics chapter in the World Religions text. Theology is a different class. Besides, a mention is not what ID proponents (and the Kansas school board) wants. They want full-on equal time coverage making ID half the biology curriculum.

evolution is the only possible way life came to existence, those who consider that they may be other possibilities are insane, and are an enemy to science

No reputable scientist says that, and if you're referring to Richard Dawkins' essay in the "Ignorance: God's Gift To Kansas" thread, he's referring to those ID proponents who DELIBERATELY misquote and quote out of context to back their agenda.

Calling someone who uses lies to discredit science is justifiably called an enemy of science. :shake:




I'm not talking about current views on ID, or current propositions and events. I'm talking about philosophy. Forget proponents of ID, you are talking to me now, not them.

I'm concentrating on the words "intelligent design".
I don't think they belong to theology becuase there is no word "god" in that phrase.
the words "intelligent design" suggest that anything intelligent could have designed life on earth.
Alien life could have designed life on earth.

And why would you such an idea on theology? The words "intelligent design", do not suggest god or any other mythical creature. Those words simply say that intelligence of any kind could have designed life.

To go back to my first post.

Would you tell those robots to study the idea of ID on religion class?
If those robots were in fact made by humans, isn't it the job of their science to find evidence of that using SCIENCE and not theology?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4646663 - 09/11/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
what do you mean by unscientific?




don't know, ask diploid, I used his word


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4646746 - 09/11/05 06:27 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not talking about current views on ID, or current propositions and events. I'm talking about philosophy. Forget proponents of ID, you are talking to me now, not them.

Alright, then you're talking about something different. You're talking about the origins of life ON EARTH, not the origins of the universe, which is what the Kansas school board and the moron president of the US are talking about.

The specific mechanism of the origin of life on earth isn't known. However, it has been shown that amino acids can self-synthesis given the right conditions.

Chemists Stanley Miller's and Harold Urey's famous experiment in 1953 put water, methane, hydrogen, and ammonia in a closed, sterile environment with an electric spark to simulate lightning.

After a few days they analyzed the contents of the experiment and found that amino acids, the critical organic molecules essential to life, had appeared by themselves. The four carbon chemical bonds in the methane had broken free and rearranged themselves into the building blocks of life.

This happened without the benefit of a designer, alien, creator, or anything else besides water, methane, hydrogen, ammonia and a spark.

Although it is now believed that the Earth's atmosphere at the time of abiogenesis did not contain enough carbon or free nitrogen for this to have been the synthetic route to the first organism, it nevertheless clearly established that a natural processes could have produced the first life on Earth.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4646756 - 09/11/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

what do you mean by unscientific?

Unscientific = has nothing to do with science. God, religion, astrology, magic, for example.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: Diploid]
    #4647093 - 09/11/05 08:05 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I'm not talking about current views on ID, or current propositions and events. I'm talking about philosophy. Forget proponents of ID, you are talking to me now, not them.

Alright, then you're talking about something different. You're talking about the origins of life ON EARTH, not the origins of the universe, which is what the Kansas school board and the moron president of the US are talking about.

The specific mechanism of the origin of life on earth isn't known. However, it has been shown that amino acids can self-synthesis given the right conditions.

Chemists Stanley Miller's and Harold Urey's famous experiment in 1953 put water, methane, hydrogen, and ammonia in a closed, sterile environment with an electric spark to simulate lightning.

After a few days they analyzed the contents of the experiment and found that amino acids, the critical organic molecules essential to life, had appeared by themselves. The four carbon chemical bonds in the methane had broken free and rearranged themselves into the building blocks of life.

This happened without the benefit of a designer, alien, creator, or anything else besides water, methane, hydrogen, ammonia and a spark.

Although it is now believed that the Earth's atmosphere at the time of abiogenesis did not contain enough carbon or free nitrogen for this to have been the synthetic route to the first organism, it nevertheless clearly established that a natural processes could have produced the first life on Earth.





yea it does establish the fact that it COULD have happened , but it does not make it certain, it makes in a possible explanation.

And yea, I'm talking about life on earth.
And the idea of ID does not compleatly go against idea of evolution, because only a part of the theory evolution is being chalangedm, the part at the begining. I think mechanisms of adaptation, natural selection etc have been proven, and the idea of ID would not really disprove it. ID deals with begining of life on earth, not it's development, it's changes etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (09/11/05 08:07 PM)


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4647473 - 09/11/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

It all comes down to weight of evidence. there is no test for ID. apart from the designer revealing itself (or finding a "made in betelgeuse" tag on our DNA). While the Miller-Urey experiment did not accurately model the conditions of pre-biotic earth and also did not result in all components required, (later tests were more successful, producing all 20 amino acids.) it was testable and it's results show that the materials needed for life can arise from purely chemical processes that while not global, could have been local. tying in with the anthropic principle, if it was possible then it is probable.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: psychomime]
    #4648054 - 09/11/05 11:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

science- 1)And area of knowledge that is the subject of study 2) Natural Science: knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws ESPECIALLY AS OBTAINED AND TESTED THROUGH THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD

Scientific Method - The rules and methods for the pursuit of knowledge involving the findings and stating of a problem, the collection of facts THROUGH OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENT, and making and testing of ideas that need to be proven right or wrong

(The Merriam-Webster Dictionary, emphasis mine)

To say that an intelligent force may have created life is an INFERENCE... NOT an observation of any actual, testible fact. Inference does not make science, observation and experiment do.

I believe that we should be open to the idea. It may not fit in a theology class (since it doesn't mention god) but it fits quite nicely in a philosophy class. One thing is for certain though, it does not fit in a biology class until there is sufficient SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to support it, and not mere inference or the slight chance of possibility.

Intelligent desighn is not science, it is philosophy


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Offlinemar1juana
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4649711 - 09/12/05 12:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
A question to all of you who consider the idea of ID to be unscientific


Let's say in the future humans make AI and populate an empty planet with intelligent machines and leave them there.

years after, the machines are making new machines (their way of breeding) and so on, and they have their own science for figuring stuff out like how to imporove themselfs, figuring how nature works etc. And the question pops out, "how were we created"?

Should they as scientists consider the idea, that they were made by someone, unscientific?
And why is that?

What advice would you give them in their search for their origins?



.


Edited by mar1juana (09/12/05 12:36 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: mar1juana]
    #4649719 - 09/12/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

why do we go to Mars and finance SETI?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: humans as intelligent designers [Re: dr0mni]
    #4650056 - 09/12/05 02:04 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Very good view !
But does ID really has to do so much with origin of life ? Not more the designations ?? If so, the movement (evolution) towards that has to be considered ...

Complex stuff...great to think about...

BTW: Psychology nowerdays tries to define 'scientific' methods (with propability-mathematics) to test 'kind of' philosophical theories, with the aid of hypothesises.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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