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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Silversoul]
#4632250 - 09/07/05 10:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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You know already I disapprove of deciding issues of morality by popular vote, otherwise known as democracy (tyranny of the majority).
However, California has decided otherwise. They do take many matters directly to the voters rather than relying on the elected representatives of the state legislature.
Let's suppose a statewide referendum supported decriminalizing marijuana, but the state legislature ignored it and instead passed a bill calling for harsher penalties for possession. When the governor vetoed that bill, you'd be praising him to the skies.
The state constitution of California allows legislators to pass bills, it allows for input from voters through referenda, and it allows for a governor's veto. I'd say in this case, Arnie's position is much more closely in tune with the desires of his constituents than the state legislature's position. The state's legislators have in essence thumbed their noses at those who voted them in as representatives. A betrayal, to be blunt.
In this case, given the nature of state government in California, there's no question Arnold is the one in the right. Like it or not.
Phred
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downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Phred]
#4632427 - 09/07/05 11:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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my old hs pricipal is gay, he is against gay marriage. He is really really really rich too.
-------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Phred]
#4632442 - 09/07/05 11:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Let's suppose a statewide referendum supported decriminalizing marijuana, but the state legislature ignored it and instead passed a bill calling for harsher penalties for possesion. When the governor vetoed that bill, you'd be praising him to the skies.
Indeed I would, because it's the right thing to do, not because of majority opinion. I am for protecting liberty regardless of how popular or unpopular it is.
Quote:
The state constitution of California allows legislators to pass bills, it allows for input from voters through referenda, and it allows for a governor's veto. I'd say in this case, Arnie's position is much more closely in tune with the desires of his constituents than the state legislature's position. The state's legislators have in essence thumbed their noses at those who voted them in as representatives. A betrayal, to be blunt.
I thumb my nose right at them too, and throw a little one-finger salute on top of that. Fuck 'em, the ignorant bastards. Let them call whatever's going on under their roof a "civil union." If they're upset about gays wanting equal treatment under the law, then they can just go cry about it.
Quote:
In this case, given the nature of state government in California, there's no question Arnold is the one in the right. Like it or not.
The fact that his actions are understandable given the circumstances does not make them right.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Phred]
#4632529 - 09/07/05 11:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Let's suppose a statewide referendum supported decriminalizing marijuana, but the state legislature ignored it and instead passed a bill calling for harsher penalties for possesion. When the governor vetoed that bill, you'd be praising him to the skies.
Of course he would praise him. I know I sure would. Any measure which increases an individual's personal freedom is worth commendation.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Redstorm]
#4633140 - 09/08/05 07:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Okay, then. Both you and Paradigm have admitted that what matters to you is your opinion(s) of what is right, regardless of how closely it follows (or violates) the process laid down in the California state constitution. In one case you might back the legislators, in a different case the referendum results, in a third case the governor's veto.
This is referred to by proponents of direct democracy as "tyranny of the minority".
Again, I must point out that I too am against deciding moral issues by the whim of the masses either -- as both of you are well aware by now. However, that's the way things are set up in California. In a democratic context, Schwarzenegger has done nothing wrong. Quite the reverse -- he has corrected a wrong done to the voters of California by the state legislature.
Just another example of the dangers of direct democracy and of deciding points of law through public referenda.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Phred]
#4633228 - 09/08/05 08:41 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wouldn't say it is a tyranny of the minority. In either of the cases stated, the new rights gained by the citizens would not take away rights of the majority. It is not a zero-sum game.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Redstorm]
#4633304 - 09/08/05 09:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: I wouldn't say it is a tyranny of the minority. In either of the cases stated, the new rights gained by the citizens would not take away rights of the majority. It is not a zero-sum game.
Exactly. Anything that expands liberty for everyone cannot be properly described as "tyranny," no matter what those stupid voters think. The wrongdoing here has been done by the voters, not to them.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Redstorm]
#4633435 - 09/08/05 10:26 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: What an asshole.
he's an asshole for carrying out the will of the state voters?!
it sucks, but that's his job.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: afoaf]
#4633442 - 09/08/05 10:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Read the rest of the thread.
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Anisotropic
Stranger
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: afoaf]
#4633525 - 09/08/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the voters wanted to go back to the days where it was legal to lynch blacks in the streets, would it be his job to veto anti-lynching laws?
Government should protect the minority from the whims of the majority. In this case, he's failing the American people by being a whore for votes. (Instead of doing what is right.)
But that's what most politicians are, whores for votes and power.
Edited by Anisotropic (09/08/05 10:59 AM)
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Anisotropic]
#4633553 - 09/08/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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spare me the slippery slope.
there are plenty of checks and balances that would prevent a situation of that magnitude from being realized...namely, the constitution.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4633632 - 09/08/05 11:43 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I still to not get what rights this minority does not have with a civil union?
or is this about changing the definition of marriage?
Marriage is a relationship and bond, most commonly between a man and a woman, that plays a key role in the definition of many families. Precise definitions vary historically and between and within cultures, but it has been an important concept as a socially sanctioned bond in a sexual relationship. Globally, societies that sanction polygamy as a form of marriage are far more common than those that do not. However, monogamy is overwhelmingly most widely practiced, followed by polygyny, with othe en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Anisotropic
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: afoaf]
#4633838 - 09/08/05 12:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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It didn't for a long time. Remember, the constitution vastly out-dates civil rights for minorities.
It's just like the separate but equal argument. Separate is inherently not equal. Having a set of rules that differently governs the same item for minority groups is not equal.
For instance, segregated schools, and common law unions for homosexuals.
Both deal with the same aspect of life. (schools and romantic relationships.) Having separate rules that defines how the government interacts with the same issue, one for the majority, another for the minority, is inherently unequal.
Edited by Anisotropic (09/08/05 12:47 PM)
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Anisotropic
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Anisotropic]
#4633915 - 09/08/05 01:14 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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The same line of logic leads me to be against stricter sentences for hate crimes and things like reparations.
The problem is currently the American populous does not believe that gay marriages are valid. Like the love those people feel is some kind of facsimile, or less valid then the love heterosexual people feel in there relationships. But in reality there relationships are just as valid, it's just the majority of the people on earth are not ready for that level of acceptance yet.
The problem is not there relationships, it's the perception of there relationships. The same thing happened, and still happens with interracial couples.
It's just one more thing the people of the world will have to learn to deal with, because it's not going to stop just because they can't accept it.
Edited by Anisotropic (09/08/05 01:15 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4633972 - 09/08/05 01:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Of course, if a civil union is honored, I expect they would get the same employment benefits married people would get (medical, dental, etc for spouses).
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Unagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4634485 - 09/08/05 03:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Prohibiting gay marriage is just as absurd as yesterday's prohibition of interracial marriage.
-------------------- Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Unagipie]
#4634571 - 09/08/05 04:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unagipie said: Prohibiting gay marriage is just as absurd as yesterday's prohibition of interracial marriage.
Not quite, marriage usually makes babies. Babies born into a marriage have shown statistically to be well-adjusted adults who further contribute to society. Since leaving offspring for another generation is important for life to continue many believe government tax incentives promotes a positive and productive country.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4634593 - 09/08/05 04:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: I still to not get what rights this minority does not have with a civil union?
Does the phrase "separate but equal" ring a bell? That's what politicians are trying to push with the whole "civil unions" bullshit. But just like the segregation in the south prior to the civil rights movement, this "separate but equal" ploy is far from being truly equal.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: Silversoul]
#4634709 - 09/08/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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i do not get the civil union = segregation connection.
WOW! four pages and not one person has called me a homophobe for questioning Gay Marriage.
Thank You! Shroomery PA&L
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Schwarzenegger says he will veto gay marriage bill. [Re: looner2]
#4634715 - 09/08/05 04:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Unagipie said: Prohibiting gay marriage is just as absurd as yesterday's prohibition of interracial marriage.
Not quite, marriage usually makes babies. Babies born into a marriage have shown statistically to be well-adjusted adults who further contribute to society. Since leaving offspring for another generation is important for life to continue many believe government tax incentives promotes a positive and productive country.
The world is overpopulated anyways. We should be encouraging gay marriage.
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