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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ?
    #4630107 - 09/07/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Will somebody give a factual explanation of this view beyond the belief that everything that Bush does is bad and everything bad that happens is because of Bush? Will somebody show me how responsibility belonged solely to him and he goofed up or was deliberately evil because he doesn't care about black people?


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630116 - 09/07/05 02:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It's Bush's fault, it's the governor's fault, it's the mayor's fault. It's an overall failure of government to prepare for a catastrophe for which they had plenty of advanced warning(much like 9/11).


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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4630128 - 09/07/05 02:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Pretty much


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630134 - 09/07/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm let's see, who appointed the head of FEMA, a crony with absolutely NO QUALIFICATIONS and was fired from his previous job judging horses" Whose fault was that?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4630136 - 09/07/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Paradigm, that seems like a more realistic appraisal, but does not explain why people aren't saying the Governor or Louisiana "Doesn't Care About Black People". Why is Bush the man to blame here for so many people?


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630140 - 09/07/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

EVERYTHING is Bush's fault, period, since the beginning of time, til the end of time, EVERYTHING was/is/will be his fault.



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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630143 - 09/07/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Paradigm, that seems like a more realistic appraisal, but does not explain why people aren't saying the Governor or Louisiana "Doesn't Care About Black People". Why is Bush the man to blame here for so many people?



Because some people are simple-minded morons, much like the president they're criticizing.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4630147 - 09/07/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Don't forget all those who chose to move to New Orleans and the dumb asses who refused to leave (I don't mean those who were incapable of leaving).


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630172 - 09/07/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

As Paradigm pointed out, it was an entire failure of the government, and guess who is the figurehead of the government? The figurehead will always take the criticisms, even if the failure occured at a level underneath him.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630213 - 09/07/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I see. You attack a weak response while ducking a strong response to your question. Seems you do not truly want to discuss the issue.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offline001
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Ravus]
    #4630226 - 09/07/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

bush should of dammed the levies with his billions of dollars. Theres enough paper there to build an ark.

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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4630329 - 09/07/05 02:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.blah3.com/article.php?story=20050903214041794&fark

I don't think he cares nothing about black people. I mean Rice and Powell are black.

I just don't think he gives a dam about THESE (black) people in particular.

I don't think all of this is his (Bush's) fault. More the fault of a system where all you need to be the leader of a country is have the right views on homosexuals. (Along with a slew of other equally trivial things)

I mean are any of the politicians and there rich crony's (mostly just people that are after cushy office day jobs, and power) actually the people we really want handling these situations? (Republican or Democrat)

I don't know what we could do better. But I know that this current system has alot of draw backs, and I think we are seeing alot of them manifest currently in New Orleans.

Edited by Anisotropic (09/07/05 02:45 PM)

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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4630429 - 09/07/05 03:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The whole mess shows how polerised and partisan American politics has become, beyond reason on all sides.

The Bush administration bares some responsibility, but not that majority, there is plenty blame to go around, the City, the state, the people, FEMA, the previous administrations, maybe even a butterfly somewhere.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4630463 - 09/07/05 03:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Damn butterflys.  :pottymouth:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4630784 - 09/07/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Hmmm let's see, who appointed the head of FEMA, a crony with absolutely NO QUALIFICATIONS and was fired from his previous job judging horses" Whose fault was that?




What a dumb question.

Of course Bush bears the responsibility for that.

To address the original post, Bush is being blamed for a number of reasons.

1. Part of the blame is his to bear (rightfully).
2. As stated earlier, he is the figure-head of the government. Blame will tend to gravitate towards the president.
3. It is "in" to bash Bush. It is the new trend, and there's not anything cooler one can do.

I just hope that the majority of this blame is eventually put where it belongs, on the shoulders of Nagin and Blanco.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4631037 - 09/07/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Just what is it that you think is Bush's fault?

Louisiana is notorious for corruption. Federal funds sent there for levee improvements were redirected by the local officials. See this
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/bcarre/pastflood.htm
for a history of levees. Note particularly this:

"The MRC's role grew with each flood, finally culminating in the Flood Control Act of 1917, which authorized the MRC to construct an extensive program of flood protection with cost-sharing by states and local interests."

Much money was sent by the feds but it was largely mishandled by the locals, when not outright stolen
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?s=3145997

"It was just a matter of time before the bill was sent to the state following its handling of federal FEMA flood buyout monies. The government says more than 30 million was misspent by the state through the Office of Emergency Preparedness between 1997 and 2002. Three former high level employees of the office are under federal indictment for charges related to the handling of those FEMA."

And children, let us not forget our civics lessons. It is Congress that allocates funds and passes laws. The President has a certain amount of added clout but he is not a potentate. I have seen other reports, but will not go back any more to find them, that alluded to the fact that NO and the independant levee boards failed to qualify for matching federal funds which would have been available to them. I think I have linked enough.

Then we also have this to ponder. FEMA is not a first responder. Never was, never will be. Bush, to his never to be denied credit warned Nagin and Blanco that bad shit was coming and they had better get their people out. Short of invading the state he has no authority to do more until asked by the governor, who is the Commander in Chief of her National Guard. We have the reports of Nagin himself that the three of them met, Bush, Nagin and Barco on AF1 and Bush and Barco went off alone and discussed options, to which Barco responded she needed 24 hrs to think about it. Sorry I can't find the link now. Some others probably have it. I'll look later.

Just what do you want the man to do? If Bush had forcibly evacuated the town you would have decried him a fascist dictator. Fucking FEMA is not in charge until requested and then it takes some time. The fucking governor is turning out to look even worse than "school bus" Nagin.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4631171 - 09/07/05 06:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Bush DOES share some of the blame for the response of the government to the situation. First, he has delegated authority to incompetent people who do not have relevant experience or training. Secondly, Reservists and National Guard along with National Guard Equipment such as helicopters and deep water vehicles are in IRAQ, not LA. Many Reservists and National Guard are emergency personnel who were unavailable to respond because they were in IRAQ. Though there is no way of knowing what would have been available after Katrina passed, it is safe to assume that at least some of these resources would have been available had they not been performing the functions of empire (or if you want to use a euphemism, 'nation building' or 'world police agency'). Of course this does not relieve the Mayor (all those buses) or Governor of their share of responsibility. Let's face it, government on ALL levels was deficient and parasites from both wings (Democrat AND Republican) of the duopoly are culpable.

Tell me, had terrorists damaged the levees instead of mother nature, do you actually believe that your president would have been any more prepared, that your government would have actually performed it's most basic, primary function of protecting the people? I don't think so. The lessons of 9/11 and Katrina show that our government is incapable of protecting the people and those holding positions of power from both major political parties are more concerned with covering their sorry asses and the continuation of government instead of the welfare of the people.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4631275 - 09/07/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think that the federal response has actually been good considering the circumstances. I think the major failings happened on the state and local levels. People just use it to take a cheap shot at Bush and lay all the blame on him and the feds. If anything, the Feds are the ones who did ANYTHING positive down there. They deserve credit and not blame.

Kudos to the feds for saving what was a horrible situation.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4631401 - 09/07/05 06:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Frankly I think it is the viewpoint of a child to expect complete and total protection from any eventuality. Most give up this illusion around 1st grade.

The differences between NY on 9/11 and NO is that the first responders were still there. The whole town was not wiped out. Conversely, NO had the opportunity to pre-respond. They were warned, immediately and for decades. They did nowhere near what they were supposed to do. Blanco is turning out to be more and more of a waffling retard than Nagin. This can't be good for Hillary.

Now that is an example of finding a silver lining in a cloud. I wonder how long it will take her to turn on Blanco big time.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4631412 - 09/07/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You have to admit the FEMA thing was a fucking mess. I'm still trying to figure out how some of the higher-ups got the positions they did.

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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4631443 - 09/07/05 07:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

All of them deserve blame. The city, the state, the government. It's naive to blame Bush solely, but it is also naive to pardon him.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4631519 - 09/07/05 07:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

This can't be good for Hillary? Bush is the figurehead of the government; ask the common people, especially those affected by the hurricane, whether this will more negatively affect their outlook on Hillary or Bush and see what kind of answer you would get. I've heard nothing about this negatively affecting Hillary or the democrats overall really, but Bush? You seem to be in a different universe than me.

Not that I think Hillary will win the democratic primary anyway; not even the moderate liberals would be stupid enough (I hope) to elect a woman candidate.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Ravus]
    #4631542 - 09/07/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You'll see. The real big asshole here is gonna turn out to be Blanco. A female governor who couldn't make crucial decisions in a crisis. This will reinforce big time prejudice against women in high places. Even among women. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying what is.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4631589 - 09/07/05 07:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It'll come down hard on Blanco, but I don't think it'll reflect on Hillary. I don't think it needs to, either, for her to fail at whatever she does.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4631608 - 09/07/05 07:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That's a good thing anyway; I would rather have Bush as a president than Hillary, and that says a lot since Bush is a shitty president. What happened to Social Security reform? Did he just forget about all of it, while everyday we draw closer to an economic apocalypse because of American socialism?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4631671 - 09/07/05 07:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'm still trying to figure out how some of the higher-ups got the positions they did.



They swallow.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4631740 - 09/07/05 07:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Frankly I think it is the viewpoint of a child to expect complete and total protection from any eventuality.



I wholeheartedly agree.

Quote:

Most give up this illusion around 1st grade.



Given the large number of people who tow the democratic party line, this is debatable. Of course given the grossly undeveloped strategic thinking of the current followers of the republican party, they are immersed in their own illusions as well.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4631943 - 09/07/05 09:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I see. You attack a weak response while ducking a strong response to your question. Seems you do not truly want to discuss the issue.




Dear Swami,
Sorry I had to go to work and you response was after Paradigm's. I am in no position to say if I think the head of FEMA was qualified though I have heard that he has qualifications in dealing with terrorism/security issues. From what I know of him it seems that either a) you are correct completely, or b) Bush's (justified) concern about terrorist threats put somebody into power who was weak with dealing with natural disasters.

However, I seem to be somewhat persueded by the critiscism of Blanco and Nagin because they were the ones supposed to be authorizing and coardinating the federal government's recourses.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4633061 - 09/08/05 05:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You have to admit the FEMA thing was a fucking mess. I'm still trying to figure out how some of the higher-ups got the positions they did.




I think the Federal response is the only thing that has actually been working in New Orleans. Who is saving the victims, shoring up the leevees and pumping out the water? Who is giving food and water to the people? The local and state response was a failure of leadership. The feds and the charities are the only ones getting things done.

Feds are not first responders. They never will be. They had to come in and clean up someone else's mistake. I can't fault the feds or FEMA on this. Sorry.


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4633224 - 09/08/05 08:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
You have to admit the FEMA thing was a fucking mess. I'm still trying to figure out how some of the higher-ups got the positions they did.




I think the Federal response is the only thing that has actually been working in New Orleans. Who is saving the victims, shoring up the leevees and pumping out the water? Who is giving food and water to the people? The local and state response was a failure of leadership. The feds and the charities are the only ones getting things done.

Feds are not first responders. They never will be. They had to come in and clean up someone else's mistake. I can't fault the feds or FEMA on this. Sorry.




I'll agree that there is no problem now, but the same thing can't be said in the days after the hurricane when FEMA was nowhere to be found.

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OfflineZooDoggy
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4637431 - 09/09/05 10:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Not like the Feds would have done much better as first responders...look at 911.  Bush watched first plane strike then went to read bah bah black sheep to grade schoolers.  Fighter jets with a few minutes needed to send into air werent sent up in time and even to right place....i could go on but everyone knows the failures.

Look ppl, blame goes to all for response to NO disaster.  It isnt like the Feds didnt know what this hurricane meant for New Orleans before it hit.  Bush/Feds could have pressured the Gov. of the state to act more...and kept closer tabs on the biggest disaster to hit america in long time...maybe Bush could have come off vacation early.

The feds exert pressure on states all the time to do what they want.  I dont agree that the feds should hold so much power but since they do they are going to be held to some accountablilty when they dont use it.  :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2: :crazy2:

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Invisibletrick

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4637509 - 09/09/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Open Comment:

If history teaches us anything it's that governments (no matter what they pledge to be) do not care for the people in the marginal "classes" with no position of importance. This isn't some "isolated incident." Governments function like vacuum cleaners, they can not stop accidents but they hide the evidence well enough. So what if the response is slow? So what if civilians die? They won't be held responsible. What're you going to do? Gonna impeach a president? Gonna pull out that big bad ballot? Gonna bitch a little more? The arguements and debates this event triggers are networked into the system just as well as 9/11 was. I don't even really see what there is to argue about. The hurricane hit, the government (in general) doesn't really give two shits. So what's new? The U.S. is yet again in possession of a weapon of mass distraction. All of the politicizing just sugar-coats the issue, I prefer to take it in raw form.

Anything to get the people's mind from thinking about dead American children in New Orleans and dead Iraqi children.

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OfflineLocus
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4637519 - 09/09/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Its a number of people's faults. state, fed, etc. govs, supreme lack of prevention, great lack of initial reaction, etc. the people that chose to live in a disaster area, etc. whatever. it's a mess that certainly could have been prevented. you could blame each group for different things at different times of the disaster as in before, present, and after.
they really should have had funding for the levees years ago and thats the gov fault. the same things going to keep happening because no one ever wants to spend money on prevention that we know will happen until something like this happens that you can no longer avoid.


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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4637520 - 09/09/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Will somebody give a factual explanation of this view beyond the belief that everything that Bush does is bad and everything bad that happens is because of Bush? Will somebody show me how responsibility belonged solely to him and he goofed up or was deliberately evil because he doesn't care about black people?

Because if he hadn't pissed away 100 billion chasing his Iraq fantasies there would have been more than enough money to spend on improving the New Orleans flood defence/response capability.

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4637543 - 09/09/05 11:09 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No there wouldn't. That money never would have been sent to NO, nor should it have been. The amount of money stolen by corrupt politicians (Democrats) in NO could have floated the whole city on a barge. Please. Throwing money down a well doesn't increase the amount of water you can get out of it. It just fills it with money and you can't get your bucket to the water.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4637634 - 09/09/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

ALL levels of government screwed up. I know it doesn't fit with the stark imaginary world of all Democrats good, all Republicans baaaad, but that's the way it is.

Let's talk about LOCAL responsibility.

Mayor Nagin had over 500 buses at his disposal and could have bussed people out BEFORE the hurricane hit - but it's obvious that the light skinned Nagin doesn't like dark skinned coloreds. The local officials KNEW a massive category 4 or 5 hurricane was headed DIRECTLY for New Orleans. It was all over the news. They KNEW that the levees were only rated for a category 3 - common knowledge among those in charge of the levees. They KNEW that New Orleans was below sea level - DUH! They KNEW that a storm surge was expected to breach the levees in the event of a direct hit.

On 8/27 Meteorologists warned that Katrina had the potential to be a major hurricane, a category 3 or 4 and that it would hit Louisiana and Mississippi early Monday (8/29). On the same day Louisiana residents were told to evacuate low lying areas. <- Right there should have been a clue to the clueless Nagin, people without the means or ability to evacuate would be TRAPPED! But I know, it's Bush's fault and nothing is done because Bush is a racist, right?

8/27 @ 17:00 Nagin calls for a voluntary evacuation of the city. But does he take measures to use the over 500 city transit and school buses at his disposal to help get the people who are most vulnerable out of the city? NO, but it's Bush's fault and nothing is done because Bush is a racist.

8/28 @ 11:00 Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation. But does he take measures to use the over 500 city transit and school buses at his disposal to help get the people who are most vulnerable out of the city? NO, but it's Bush's fault and nothing is done because Bush is a racist.

8/29 @ 6:10 Katrina hits land. It's Bush's fault, he used his evil black ops weather control rays to send a hurricane just to kill negroes because he's racist.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. I know, I know... it's all Bush's fault and it's all about race.

P.S. Before you accuse me of being a neocon who thinks that Bush can do no wrong, look up some of my previous posts on the subject. I asserted that material and human resources in Iraq may have helped with the relief efforts had they been available (to what extent is a matter of conjecture). Note though, that the resources that may have been available (National Guard equipment and personnel, local emergency personnel serving in reserve units overseas) would have been available to and under the control of LOCAL authorities (the Mayor and Governor) who dropped the ball BIG TIME. Again, ALL levels of government fucked up.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4638024 - 09/09/05 01:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

But might a little government spending on infrastructure have prevented a lot of the problems?

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638069 - 09/09/05 01:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Will somebody give a factual explanation of this view beyond the belief that everything that Bush does is bad and everything bad that happens is because of Bush? Will somebody show me how responsibility belonged solely to him and he goofed up or was deliberately evil because he doesn't care about black people?

Because if he hadn't pissed away 100 billion chasing his Iraq fantasies there would have been more than enough money to spend on improving the New Orleans flood defence/response capability.




Sweet argument!

Lets put this deep thinking into action and blame Bush for anything bad that happens in the next 5 years! Hell, if we can dump money in it, then damnit... SOMEONE SHOULDA DUMPED MONEY IN IT!


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638073 - 09/09/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But might a little government spending on infrastructure have prevented a lot of the problems?




Maybe...

Shit the world isn't perfect!!!

Oh my gosh my reality has just crumbled before my eyes  :sad:


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638074 - 09/09/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If the government did anything right we wouldn't need to spend spend spend. Government employment is a safe haven for lazy fucks.

Edited by Cowgold (09/09/05 01:54 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638089 - 09/09/05 01:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But might a little government spending on infrastructure have prevented a lot of the problems?




I have no problem with the state gov't of LA to spend their money on the infrastructure.

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638362 - 09/09/05 03:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But might a little government spending on infrastructure have prevented a lot of the problems?



I do not know. I don't know if the proposed levee enhancements would have made them capable of handling a category 4 or if they were to just compensate for the sinking. New Orleans is built on silt and continues to sink, hence levees have to be periodically raised just to maintain the same level of protection. A hurricane will bring a storm surge (I think 20 - 25 feet is not out of the question for a category 4) because of the low pressure causing the ocean to rise up in the center. Couple the storm surge with massive wind driven waves and the levees would still be inadequate if power is lost to the pumps. It's really a stupid place to make your home or establish a business given the geography and weather patterns.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4638412 - 09/09/05 03:14 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Holland, which is below sea level, has a TRIPLE levee system in case one or two are breached.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/09/05 03:56 PM)

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4638436 - 09/09/05 03:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think it keeps sinking like New Orleans... and the Dutch are smarter than the people running New Orleans.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4638693 - 09/09/05 04:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

And I thought strong weed made you stoo-pid...  :stoned:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4638705 - 09/09/05 04:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
But might a little government spending on infrastructure have prevented a lot of the problems?



Oh Alpo, yet another subject you know little about.


But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were designed to protect against a Category 3 storm, and the levees that failed were already completed projects. Strock has also said that the marsh-restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands.

Link

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that breach was particularly surprising because it occurred "along a section that was just upgraded."

"It did not have an earthen levee," Penland told the newspaper. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."

Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4638734 - 09/09/05 04:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sounds to me like some teamsters have some explaining to do...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4638824 - 09/09/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Holland, which is below sea level, has a TRIPLE levee system in case one or two are breached.




Does Holland get hurricanes?

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4638880 - 09/09/05 04:58 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know if the north sea gets hurricanes
but it can be a pretty rough place.


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4638907 - 09/09/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No hurricane susceptability = triple reinforced levees

High hurricane susceptability = single poorly-engineered dirt levee


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4639094 - 09/09/05 05:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
No hurricane susceptability = triple reinforced levees

High hurricane susceptability = single poorly-engineered dirt levee




Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that breach was particularly surprising because it occurred "along a section that was just upgraded."

"It did not have an earthen levee," Penland told the newspaper. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineVex
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4639329 - 09/09/05 07:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Bush appointed a moron with no qualifications to run the federal emergency management agency.  :rolleyes: It kind of makes you wonder about all the rest of his appointees.

i am dumbfounded at bush's desicions sometimes.

anyways, FEMA should bear the brunt of the blame as far as the aftermath. local and state officials should bear the brunt of the blame for the evacuations failures and the "preparations" and Bush should share the blame in this failure because he failed to be a leader when we really needed one....plus he appointed that moron.

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4639971 - 09/09/05 10:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vex said:
Bush appointed a moron with no qualifications to run the federal emergency management agency.  :rolleyes: It kind of makes you wonder about all the rest of his appointees.




I was actually surprised that Bush appointed such a lightweight.  I personally think his best quality is attracting top talent.  Say what you want about Dick Cheney, Condoliza Rice, Colin Powell etc.  Many people don't like them, but they are capable thinkers.  You want to play poker with Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld? 

People hate Bush appointee and cabinet members because of ideology, not because they are incompetent.  A guy like Ashcroft wasn't hated for being an idiot.  It is actually the reverse.  They knew he wasn't an idiot and they were scared shitless of what he could accomplish. 

That is what makes me scratch my head about this FEMA guy.  He padded his resume, and his resume wasn't even impressive after the padding.  If I was going to lie on my resume, I would do it with style and fucking flair baby.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4640043 - 09/09/05 10:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
A guy like Ashcroft wasn't hated for being an idiot. It is actually the reverse. They knew he wasn't an idiot and they were scared shitless of what he could accomplish.



Bad example, very bad example. Ashcroft is an idiot and a loon. Condoliza Rice, very intelligent but I don't see any spark of creativity - no divergent thinking. Colin Powell was probably the most capable person in Bush's administration but he's too inculcated with following orders and being a mouthpiece even when he knows it's wrong, why didn't they listen to him on foreign policy and military matters?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4640224 - 09/09/05 11:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
A guy like Ashcroft wasn't hated for being an idiot. It is actually the reverse. They knew he wasn't an idiot and they were scared shitless of what he could accomplish.




Bad example, very bad example. Ashcroft is an idiot and a loon.





John Ashcroft grew up a Minister's son. No wealth or family connections. He went to public schools in Springfield, Missouri and finished at the top of his class. That got him into Yale University, where he graduated with honors. He received his law degree from the University of Chicago. Those are two of the most exclusive institutions in the country. At one time he was a law professor at Southwest Missouri State University.

We have different definitions of "idiot".

Quote:

"He began his career of public service in 1973 as Missouri Auditor and was later elected to two terms as the state's Attorney General. His ability to work with leaders of both political parties prompted his colleagues in the non-partisan National Association of Attorneys General to choose him as Chairman.

Ashcroft was elected Governor of Missouri in 1984 and held that post until 1993. During his tenure, he balanced eight consecutive budgets and served as Chairman of the Education Commission of the States. Fortune magazine rated him one of the top ten education governors in the country, while Financial World and City and State magazines credited him with making Missouri one of the best financially managed states in the country. He also spearheaded the state's efforts to reduce the use of illegal drugs. In 1991, the non-partisan National Governors Association elected him Chairman."




Now I am no fan of the war on drugs, and John Ashcroft's views are not my own. But I think you seriously underestimate the measure of this man.

After that he went on to become a United States Senator, and then eventually the Attorney General of the United States. This was a man that excelled at every step of his career. He isn't an idiot at all. To the contrary, people feared him because he was quite capable. What they feared was his ideology. You may hate him, you may despise him, but you are fucked in the head if you think in any way that he is an idiot.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4640279 - 09/09/05 11:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

6 entries found for idiot.
id?i?ot Audio pronunciation of "idiot" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-t)
n.

1. A foolish or stupid person.




Quote:

3 entries found for foolish.
fool?ish Audio pronunciation of "foolish" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flsh)
adj.

1. Lacking or exhibiting a lack of good sense or judgment; silly: foolish remarks.
2. Resulting from stupidity or misinformation; unwise: a foolish decision.
3. Arousing laughter; absurd or ridiculous: a foolish grin.
4. Immoderate or stubborn; unreasonable: foolish pride; foolish love.
5. Embarrassed; abashed: I feel foolish telling you this.
6. Insignificant; trivial: spent all their money on foolish little knickknacks.




His war on drugs in based in misinformation. So for that he's an idiot.

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: newuser1492]
    #4640322 - 09/09/05 11:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Don't go semantical mind-fuck on me my friend. John Ashcroft is wrong about the war on drugs (IN MY AND YOUR OPINION), but he is not an idiot by any rational measurable standard.

And my point in the original post is that one of George Bush's biggest strengths is that he appoints capable men. The reason that people don't like them is because of their ideology. I think that the case of John Ashcroft is an excellent example of this.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4640495 - 09/10/05 12:46 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, returning to this thread after a little vacation I propose a little logical analysis. Now, the main argument I hear so far is that Bush's nomination is the cause of poor management at FEMA and FEMA deserves most of the blame.

With a scientific experiment to prove a hypothesis you must be able to repeat the experiment with the same results; so if Bush and FEMA are the problem we should expect that other major hurricanes this year would have similar management problems. However, this was not the case with Hurricane Charlie in Florida and the 5 other hurricanes. Esp. with the damage done by Charlie we should have seen a similar debacle, but we did not. Therefore we must conclude that OTHER more situational and local factors must have made a difference in this case, and thus it seems unfair to lay the burden of blame on Bush and the federal government alone.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Swami]
    #4641084 - 09/10/05 07:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No hurricane susceptability = triple reinforced levees

High hurricane susceptability = single poorly-engineered dirt levee




Damn government "interference"... :smirk:

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Invisiblenewuser1492
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4641227 - 09/10/05 08:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You're right that people shouldn't be holding FEMA primarily responsible. It's the resident's fault for not leaving when a hurricane was coming. It's the state's fault for building that dumbshit underwater city next to the Gulf. And I think the federal government assumed some responsibility when they decided to pour money into the state. And as someone pointed out earlier the Army Corp of Engineer has as one of their mission statements the upkeep of levies. The blame for the problems after the storm falls on a lot of people and it most certainly isn't a specific parties fault, rather it is the entire system of government interference. The idea that pouring more money into any situation will make it better is ridiculous and fallacious.

But comparing this to Charlie is ridiculous. Charlie was powerful but small. The eye of the storm was around 5mi compared to much larger eye for Katrina. And most importantly Charlie's path didn't take it over a giant depressed accident waiting to happen.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4641690 - 09/10/05 11:09 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Quote:

No hurricane susceptability = triple reinforced levees

High hurricane susceptability = single poorly-engineered dirt levee




Damn government "interference"... :smirk:



Ya, shame on government for doing their one legitimate duty of protecting the people. :smirk:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: newuser1492]
    #4641789 - 09/10/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
But comparing this to Charlie is ridiculous. Charlie was powerful but small. The eye of the storm was around 5mi compared to much larger eye for Katrina. And most importantly Charlie's path didn't take it over a giant depressed accident waiting to happen.




I'm not speaking in terms of damage inflicted, but the speed and organization of relief efforts. Sure the job was probobly alot easier, but they were still on top of it much faster.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4641857 - 09/10/05 11:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Ok, returning to this thread after a little vacation I propose a little logical analysis. Now, the main argument I hear so far is that Bush's nomination is the cause of poor management at FEMA and FEMA deserves most of the blame.

With a scientific experiment to prove a hypothesis you must be able to repeat the experiment with the same results; so if Bush and FEMA are the problem we should expect that other major hurricanes this year would have similar management problems. However, this was not the case with Hurricane Charlie in Florida and the 5 other hurricanes. Esp. with the damage done by Charlie we should have seen a similar debacle, but we did not. Therefore we must conclude that OTHER more situational and local factors must have made a difference in this case, and thus it seems unfair to lay the burden of blame on Bush and the federal government alone.




Florida has excellent local government response to hurricanes. Jeb Bush is constantly praised for his handling of natural disasters. The people are also educated on how to be prepared for a hurricane if they choose not to evacuate. This includes how to properly board up your home, how to pack a weeks worth of rations, and how to escape floodwaters.

http://www.floridadisaster.org/DEMpublic.htm

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Catalysis]
    #4642264 - 09/10/05 01:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Which contrasts nicely to this
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050909-121037-6314r.htm

New Orleans ignored its own plans

By Audrey Hudson and James G. Lakely
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
September 9, 2005

The city of New Orleans followed virtually no aspect of its own emergency management plan in the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina.
New Orleans officials also failed to implement most federal guidelines, which stated that the Superdome was not a safe shelter for thousands of residents.
The official "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan" states that the mayor can call for a mandatory citywide evacuation, but the Louisiana governor alone is given the power to carry out the evacuation, which Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco has yet to do. She "begged" people to leave before the storm and is still asking the few thousand holdouts to evacuate the flooded city.
Small-scale evacuations, according to the plan, are to be handled under the standard operation plans of city firefighters and police officers.
"However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long-range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities must be undertaken," the New Orleans plan says.
The plan does not say how such an evacuation should be executed, but states that a full evacuation of the city would take 72 hours, and that the city knows that there are "approximately 100,000 citizens of New Orleans [who] do not have means of personal transportation."
The guidelines of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which has little jurisdiction to act on its own but is designed to work with local authorities, suggests that local evacuation plans "coordinate the use of school buses and drivers to support evacuation efforts."
Neither New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin nor Mrs. Blanco ordered buses to take people out of the city before the storm. Two days after the storm hit, the governor issued an order for buses to roll, but by then hundreds of buses in New Orleans were underwater and useless.
Both the mayor and the governor asked residents who couldn't evacuate themselves to go to the Superdome, which in the days after the storm was a scene of chaos and violence as it became an island in a submerged city.
Former FEMA Director Joseph Allbaugh told Fox News last week that when he headed the agency, he refused to allow the Superdome to be used as a shelter during hurricanes. The city, however, ignored FEMA guidelines that designated "supershelters" should be located outside of floodplains and outside of Category 4 storm-surge zones.
FEMA has been harshly criticized by Democrats in Congress, who have demanded that Director Michael D. Brown resign. But FEMA was in place as the storm approached and the Louisiana National Guard delivered seven trailers with food and water Aug. 29 and another seven truckloads on Aug. 30 to the Superdome to help feed the 25,000 people inside.
Confusion reigned in Katrina's aftermath. A state-of-the-art mobile hospital developed with Homeland Security grants to respond to disasters and staffed by 100 doctors and paramedics was left stranded in Mississippi because Louisiana officials would not let it deploy to New Orleans.
Red Cross officials say the organization was well positioned to provide food, water and hygiene products to the thousands stranded in New Orleans. But the state refused to let them deliver the aid.
"Access to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities, and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders," the Red Cross said last week on its Web site.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4643173 - 09/10/05 06:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So the governments of the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana are corrupt and inept?

Say it ain't so!!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4645103 - 09/11/05 07:58 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
So the governments of the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana are corrupt and inept?

Say it ain't so!!




That too is Bush's fault.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4645343 - 09/11/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Some are beginning to see the light.

The race baiters will continue to blame the feds despite the facts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4646201 - 09/11/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

yeah..fema did a superb job, no doubt about it!

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646362 - 09/11/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

And you will surely be the man to explain just where they fucked up. I await your well researched and cogent analysis.


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OfflineVex
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646442 - 09/11/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

oh my fucking god...you actually believe they did a good job, don't you? you can't be serious can you!? what fantasy land do you live in? it sounds like a wondeful place, can you get me in?

wow...just...wow.

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646475 - 09/11/05 02:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I await your brilliant explication of the specific failures you have perceived


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646510 - 09/11/05 03:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

here's one example. the head of fema wasn't aware there were 20,000 people stuck at the convention center until about friday. man, that guy was on the ball. :lol:

you're right dude. it's all ray nagins fault. after his entire city was destroyed and plunged into the dark ages he should have just used his magical mayor powers to teleport in some food and water. then he could have used his lvl 18 mayor spell to pacify the hundreds of armed thugs running around shooting at people. Everyone knows that mayors are responsible for everything when disasters occur. It's to bad ray nagin wasn't told that.

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646555 - 09/11/05 03:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Got a link. And by the way please tell me who put those people there with no food water or sanitation in defiance of a previous FEMA determination that it was not an appropriate site for evacuees. I await your considered and linked response.

For mine I will direct you to Protein Wisdom, who has the usual impeccably linked research that the right is famous for

http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19000/#comments

many links to non-loons


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646574 - 09/11/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

uh huh...yeah, i think i see the problem here. I'm talking about the AFTERMATH of the storm, where fema fucked up badly. while you're talking about what was going on before the storm, when local and state governments fucked up badly. See, unlike you, i can admit to both. I don't have any political agenda to place blame, like you seem to.

Once again, i'm sure ray nagin would have used his magic wand to fly the 100,000 or so poor people out of new orleans if he hadn't left it at home that day. Just where else are you supposed to put tens of thousands of people if not in one of the only buildings that holds tens of thousands of people? Should he have spread them out in all the various super walmarts of new orleans. that would have been practical!  :laugh:

As for a link. Why should i bother? every single news orginization in the country reported it in the form of a quote from brown "i just found out last night (thursday) that there were people at the convention center"

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646646 - 09/11/05 03:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

At no point did FEMA ever promise to do anything before 48 to 72 hours after. First responders are first responders. Further FEMA is absolutely not responsible for quelling looters. State National Guard, of which there were adequate members available but not called for by the National Guard Commander in Chief, which was Blanco. Criticise but get the facts. Early intervention by either FEMA or troops would have required an invasion of the state by federal agencies. Do you really want that precedent? I don't. FEMA did OK. Others, not so well. Perfection is a dream of children and journalists. Same entity near as I can tell.


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646753 - 09/11/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You know how I feel about the shitty prepearation before the hurricane, but it would be idiotic or ignorant to try to argue that FEMA handled their situation well.

"At no point did FEMA ever promise to do anything before 48 to 72 hours after."

It doesn't really matter whether or not they promised to be there right afterwards. That is their job, and they failed miserably at it. Brown said on September 1 that FEMA was unaware that people were taking refuge in the convention center. This development was painfully obvious to anyone who turned on the television or looked at any news source before the 1st.

I know you're a smart man, and I find myself agreeing with you often, but blind devotion is as bad as blind criticism.

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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646791 - 09/11/05 04:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I have yet to see anyone give a specific instance of FEMA "mishandling" anything. All I have seen is people complain that Brown padded his resum? and was unaware that there were people at the convention center.

Clearly almost no one in this forum understands the role of FEMA in cases like this. This is not surprising since no one in the mainstream media understands it either.

What I want (and zappaisgod wants) is a specific example of "mishandling". Something like, "This convoy of relief trucks got lost on the way." Or "The first supply helicopters to arrive didn't carry food and water and medical supplies, but instead carried ammunition to provide to those tasked with shooting looters."

It's not enough to repeat over and over that they "didn't do enough" or "didn't do it right".

Specifics, folks. Specifics!





Phred


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Phred]
    #4646805 - 09/11/05 04:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

My gripe is with the time is took them to deliver aid. Once they got there, I think they have done a great job.

Perhaps I am just mistaken. Are they not expected to be there immediately afterwards to deliver aid?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646903 - 09/11/05 05:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Youy can stamp your foot all you want but they were never structured to ba first responder. It is thus disingenuous to expect them to be one. Not their mission. It is a relief organization. That's it. You want more? Set up another organization. Oh wait there already were some. They were called the NO police department and LA Homeland Security.


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646905 - 09/11/05 05:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Absolutely not!

They are expected to be there 72 to 96 hours after first impact. Read this --

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005418.php



Phred


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Phred]
    #4648903 - 09/12/05 12:57 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

My post tragedy-encounter with FEMA was filled with misinformation and frustration.

I lost my stock market job, layed off, my first day back after 9-11... AND I lived in the SAME NEIGHBORHOOD as the Trade Center! I tasted and smelled the smoke.

Bills became very tight, as did food and alas, ganja.

FEMA offered NO help, and actually mistakenly told me I would not even qualify for unemployment insurance! Thanks FEMA!

I needed help with my bills, FEMA told me since I had payed my rent (a loan from the parents) they could do nothing... even though my electricity was WAY behind. They suggested if I wanted their help, I should miss a rent payment or two! Wow! Thanks FEMA!

I'd say don't get me started on FEMA but it is too late.

OK, New Orleans...

Phred. "Brownie" didn't know thousands of starving, dehydrated people were in the New Orleans convention center. He learned it LIVE on TV during an interview. He was interviewed by Paula Zahn of CNN.

He didn't know supplies could be DROPPED from helicopters! Again, this was something he learned LIVE on TV from a reporter; Brian Williams of NBC.

FEMA did a piss poor job, and Americans watched the same beurocratic FEMA bullshit I experienced post 9-11... and they watched it Live on FOX. How 'bout that Leftist Media?

3 fucking DAYS! I ask you, how many times could Dubbya have read, "My Pet Goat" between the time the hurricane hit, and the time he ended his vacation?

FEMA reaction coincided with Dubbya's return to Washington DC after cutting his 5 week vacation 3 days short.

FEMA, like Dubbya was 3 days late.

No single hurricaine in Florida during last year's election season, was handled so slowly.

It sure can seem like Dubbya thinks New Orleans La. is filled with po-boy, nigger Democrats!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Rose]
    #4670913 - 09/16/05 06:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Did you know at one time, black people would only join the Republican party? Its true.

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4671002 - 09/16/05 06:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)


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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4671029 - 09/16/05 06:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Los_Pepes said:
Did you know at one time, black people would only join the Republican party? Its true.



Yes. That was before Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act, and all the white southerners joined the Republican Party while the blacks became Democrats. After that, the racists felt themselves to be more at home amongst the Republicans.


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4671037 - 09/16/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hurricane Katrina wasn't just a natural disaster...
Talk about hitting the nail on the head! This article by Robert Tracinski - IMHO - get's it exactly right.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.
In offline discussions last week, Chris got it exactly right when he asked "Do you think somebody from Ethiopia or Sub-Saharian Africa would have just sat around after such a disaster and waited for someone to come along to help them? Or do you think that people who have had to spend practically every waking hour thinking about how they were going to survive the next day would get up and do something - anything -to try and save themselves and their family?"

I think we all know the answer to those questions. It's the same reason that immigrants from Vietnam, or Cuba, or Haiti, or Mexico can come to this country with nothing can start a business and make a decent home and life for themselves while people born in this country cannot.

Hurricane Katrina wasn't just a natural disaster, it exposed the man-made disaster of the welfare state.

http://www.theblackrepublican.net/


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=black+republican&btnG=Google+Search

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4671199 - 09/16/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

By welfare do you mean those 3 days we paid our president to sit around on his ass?


*rimshot*


--------------------
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