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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Alex213]
    #4641690 - 09/10/05 11:09 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Quote:

No hurricane susceptability = triple reinforced levees

High hurricane susceptability = single poorly-engineered dirt levee




Damn government "interference"... :smirk:



Ya, shame on government for doing their one legitimate duty of protecting the people. :smirk:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: newuser1492]
    #4641789 - 09/10/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
But comparing this to Charlie is ridiculous. Charlie was powerful but small. The eye of the storm was around 5mi compared to much larger eye for Katrina. And most importantly Charlie's path didn't take it over a giant depressed accident waiting to happen.




I'm not speaking in terms of damage inflicted, but the speed and organization of relief efforts. Sure the job was probobly alot easier, but they were still on top of it much faster.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineCatalysis
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4641857 - 09/10/05 11:55 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Ok, returning to this thread after a little vacation I propose a little logical analysis. Now, the main argument I hear so far is that Bush's nomination is the cause of poor management at FEMA and FEMA deserves most of the blame.

With a scientific experiment to prove a hypothesis you must be able to repeat the experiment with the same results; so if Bush and FEMA are the problem we should expect that other major hurricanes this year would have similar management problems. However, this was not the case with Hurricane Charlie in Florida and the 5 other hurricanes. Esp. with the damage done by Charlie we should have seen a similar debacle, but we did not. Therefore we must conclude that OTHER more situational and local factors must have made a difference in this case, and thus it seems unfair to lay the burden of blame on Bush and the federal government alone.




Florida has excellent local government response to hurricanes. Jeb Bush is constantly praised for his handling of natural disasters. The people are also educated on how to be prepared for a hurricane if they choose not to evacuate. This includes how to properly board up your home, how to pack a weeks worth of rations, and how to escape floodwaters.

http://www.floridadisaster.org/DEMpublic.htm

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Catalysis]
    #4642264 - 09/10/05 01:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Which contrasts nicely to this
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050909-121037-6314r.htm

New Orleans ignored its own plans

By Audrey Hudson and James G. Lakely
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
September 9, 2005

The city of New Orleans followed virtually no aspect of its own emergency management plan in the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina.
New Orleans officials also failed to implement most federal guidelines, which stated that the Superdome was not a safe shelter for thousands of residents.
The official "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan" states that the mayor can call for a mandatory citywide evacuation, but the Louisiana governor alone is given the power to carry out the evacuation, which Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco has yet to do. She "begged" people to leave before the storm and is still asking the few thousand holdouts to evacuate the flooded city.
Small-scale evacuations, according to the plan, are to be handled under the standard operation plans of city firefighters and police officers.
"However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long-range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities must be undertaken," the New Orleans plan says.
The plan does not say how such an evacuation should be executed, but states that a full evacuation of the city would take 72 hours, and that the city knows that there are "approximately 100,000 citizens of New Orleans [who] do not have means of personal transportation."
The guidelines of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which has little jurisdiction to act on its own but is designed to work with local authorities, suggests that local evacuation plans "coordinate the use of school buses and drivers to support evacuation efforts."
Neither New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin nor Mrs. Blanco ordered buses to take people out of the city before the storm. Two days after the storm hit, the governor issued an order for buses to roll, but by then hundreds of buses in New Orleans were underwater and useless.
Both the mayor and the governor asked residents who couldn't evacuate themselves to go to the Superdome, which in the days after the storm was a scene of chaos and violence as it became an island in a submerged city.
Former FEMA Director Joseph Allbaugh told Fox News last week that when he headed the agency, he refused to allow the Superdome to be used as a shelter during hurricanes. The city, however, ignored FEMA guidelines that designated "supershelters" should be located outside of floodplains and outside of Category 4 storm-surge zones.
FEMA has been harshly criticized by Democrats in Congress, who have demanded that Director Michael D. Brown resign. But FEMA was in place as the storm approached and the Louisiana National Guard delivered seven trailers with food and water Aug. 29 and another seven truckloads on Aug. 30 to the Superdome to help feed the 25,000 people inside.
Confusion reigned in Katrina's aftermath. A state-of-the-art mobile hospital developed with Homeland Security grants to respond to disasters and staffed by 100 doctors and paramedics was left stranded in Mississippi because Louisiana officials would not let it deploy to New Orleans.
Red Cross officials say the organization was well positioned to provide food, water and hygiene products to the thousands stranded in New Orleans. But the state refused to let them deliver the aid.
"Access to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities, and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders," the Red Cross said last week on its Web site.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4643173 - 09/10/05 06:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So the governments of the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana are corrupt and inept?

Say it ain't so!!

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4645103 - 09/11/05 07:58 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
So the governments of the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana are corrupt and inept?

Say it ain't so!!




That too is Bush's fault.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4645343 - 09/11/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Some are beginning to see the light.

The race baiters will continue to blame the feds despite the facts.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineVex
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Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #4646201 - 09/11/05 01:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

yeah..fema did a superb job, no doubt about it!

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646362 - 09/11/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

And you will surely be the man to explain just where they fucked up. I await your well researched and cogent analysis.


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OfflineVex
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646442 - 09/11/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

oh my fucking god...you actually believe they did a good job, don't you? you can't be serious can you!? what fantasy land do you live in? it sounds like a wondeful place, can you get me in?

wow...just...wow.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646475 - 09/11/05 02:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I await your brilliant explication of the specific failures you have perceived


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OfflineVex
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646510 - 09/11/05 03:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

here's one example. the head of fema wasn't aware there were 20,000 people stuck at the convention center until about friday. man, that guy was on the ball. :lol:

you're right dude. it's all ray nagins fault. after his entire city was destroyed and plunged into the dark ages he should have just used his magical mayor powers to teleport in some food and water. then he could have used his lvl 18 mayor spell to pacify the hundreds of armed thugs running around shooting at people. Everyone knows that mayors are responsible for everything when disasters occur. It's to bad ray nagin wasn't told that.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646555 - 09/11/05 03:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Got a link. And by the way please tell me who put those people there with no food water or sanitation in defiance of a previous FEMA determination that it was not an appropriate site for evacuees. I await your considered and linked response.

For mine I will direct you to Protein Wisdom, who has the usual impeccably linked research that the right is famous for

http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19000/#comments

many links to non-loons


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OfflineVex
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646574 - 09/11/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

uh huh...yeah, i think i see the problem here. I'm talking about the AFTERMATH of the storm, where fema fucked up badly. while you're talking about what was going on before the storm, when local and state governments fucked up badly. See, unlike you, i can admit to both. I don't have any political agenda to place blame, like you seem to.

Once again, i'm sure ray nagin would have used his magic wand to fly the 100,000 or so poor people out of new orleans if he hadn't left it at home that day. Just where else are you supposed to put tens of thousands of people if not in one of the only buildings that holds tens of thousands of people? Should he have spread them out in all the various super walmarts of new orleans. that would have been practical!  :laugh:

As for a link. Why should i bother? every single news orginization in the country reported it in the form of a quote from brown "i just found out last night (thursday) that there were people at the convention center"

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Vex]
    #4646646 - 09/11/05 03:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

At no point did FEMA ever promise to do anything before 48 to 72 hours after. First responders are first responders. Further FEMA is absolutely not responsible for quelling looters. State National Guard, of which there were adequate members available but not called for by the National Guard Commander in Chief, which was Blanco. Criticise but get the facts. Early intervention by either FEMA or troops would have required an invasion of the state by federal agencies. Do you really want that precedent? I don't. FEMA did OK. Others, not so well. Perfection is a dream of children and journalists. Same entity near as I can tell.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4646753 - 09/11/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You know how I feel about the shitty prepearation before the hurricane, but it would be idiotic or ignorant to try to argue that FEMA handled their situation well.

"At no point did FEMA ever promise to do anything before 48 to 72 hours after."

It doesn't really matter whether or not they promised to be there right afterwards. That is their job, and they failed miserably at it. Brown said on September 1 that FEMA was unaware that people were taking refuge in the convention center. This development was painfully obvious to anyone who turned on the television or looked at any news source before the 1st.

I know you're a smart man, and I find myself agreeing with you often, but blind devotion is as bad as blind criticism.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646791 - 09/11/05 04:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I have yet to see anyone give a specific instance of FEMA "mishandling" anything. All I have seen is people complain that Brown padded his resum? and was unaware that there were people at the convention center.

Clearly almost no one in this forum understands the role of FEMA in cases like this. This is not surprising since no one in the mainstream media understands it either.

What I want (and zappaisgod wants) is a specific example of "mishandling". Something like, "This convoy of relief trucks got lost on the way." Or "The first supply helicopters to arrive didn't carry food and water and medical supplies, but instead carried ammunition to provide to those tasked with shooting looters."

It's not enough to repeat over and over that they "didn't do enough" or "didn't do it right".

Specifics, folks. Specifics!





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Phred]
    #4646805 - 09/11/05 04:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

My gripe is with the time is took them to deliver aid. Once they got there, I think they have done a great job.

Perhaps I am just mistaken. Are they not expected to be there immediately afterwards to deliver aid?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646903 - 09/11/05 05:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Youy can stamp your foot all you want but they were never structured to ba first responder. It is thus disingenuous to expect them to be one. Not their mission. It is a relief organization. That's it. You want more? Set up another organization. Oh wait there already were some. They were called the NO police department and LA Homeland Security.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Why is the New Orleans Crisis Bush's Fault ? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4646905 - 09/11/05 05:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Absolutely not!

They are expected to be there 72 to 96 hours after first impact. Read this --

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005418.php



Phred


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