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Offlinestvip
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Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof)
    #4626855 - 09/06/05 08:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

[EDIT: nonsense deleted]


Edited by stvip (09/07/05 11:40 AM)


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OfflineGulGen
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Re: Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof) [Re: stvip]
    #4627025 - 09/06/05 09:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Gramine and DMT are both alkaloids, which generally speaking are not water soluble in their freebase states, but are readily soluble in their acidified salt forms. This is certainly true of DMT - it will not dissolve significantly into fresh water, but will into acidified water. That's why ayahuasca recipes always include some acidification, such as lemon juice.

Gramine is closely structurally related to DMT, so I've no reason to suspect that it'd be any different in that regard.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof) [Re: GulGen]
    #4627481 - 09/06/05 11:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Actually - yes, I don't see any mention that DMT freebase is soluble in neutral water (I have no idea why I assumed it would be). Petroleum ether might be a different story. They are indeed very close in structure, but that extra carbon atom can make a difference - carbon tails tend to dislocate any polar charge and make molecules soluble in nonpolars (think of fatty acids). DMT freebase is soluble in warm naptha (of course, two carbons isn't much of a tail, so I'm not sure that's the correct explanation), whereas MI lists gramine as also practically insoluble in petroleum ether. So that could be an easy way to separate the two. I'll have to check how 5-MeODMT fares.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof) [Re: stvip]
    #4628961 - 09/07/05 09:21 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Alas: Homogramine (DMT) is also practically insoluble in water in its freebase form.

Indole-CH2-N(CH3)2
= Gramine

Indole-CH2-CH2-N(CH3)2
= Homogramine (DMT)

Fractional distilling under a vacuum would work to separate the two but most of us haven't got that option.

STVIP you're usually up to speed on things: what do you know about gramine's pharmacology?


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof) [Re: Asante]
    #4629328 - 09/07/05 12:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

WS: yes, I know - that was quite silly of me. But see my reply above, petroleum ether seems very promising. Most DMT extraction procedures rely on DMT's solubility in warm naptha, so that should work.

As for gramine's pharmacology - not muchm, I haven't really studied the subject. Some bits of information: it causes vasorelaxation, probably through interaction with 5HT receptors. When administered to sheep, it does not cause the sudden death syndrome associated with phalaris and arundo donax grazing, supporting the fungal contamination hypothesis. Feeding a high gramine diet to rats causes increased food consumption, body weight and testicular and hepatic organ weights in males, but not in females. (which is weird. Possibly a phytosteroid?) LD50 in different routes of administration is about 10 times that of DMT (IIRC, that was tested rats). I recall seeing something about it causing mitochondrial ETC uncoupling at high doses by an unknown mechanism.
I think that an easy method of removing gramine, coupled with phalaris strain selection (possibly through asexual propagation with rhizome cuttings, once a good specimen is found) would make this a very attractive DMT source.


Edited by stvip (09/07/05 12:33 PM)


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OfflineGolanodel
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Re: Solubility of gramine (or lack thereof) [Re: stvip]
    #24003640 - 01/12/17 12:21 PM (2 months, 8 days ago)

Ok, I am new to all this but I have done some pretty extensive research on the subject of Gramine and I think I have found a way to separate most of it from the Dmt found in  phalaris arundinacea and other strains. Gramine is insoluble in water and has a higher boiling point that Dmt by 7 degrees C. Dmt boils in salt form at 160 c and Gramine boils at 167 c. So Im thinking that after the final extraction of dmt you could put it in a makeshift condenser,( an air tight canning jar or pyrex mixing bowl with an air tight lid with a hole cut in it that allows a hose to travel a bowl of ice water and out into another jar) with alkaline water at about 8-9 ph which would cause the Dmt to be water soluble and evaporate with the water and condense in another container. Like I said i am new but the method sounds like it would work. In theory.


Edited by Golanodel (01/12/17 12:23 PM)


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