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InvisibleIcelander
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Taoist self acceptance.
    #4626152 - 09/06/05 05:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

" Philosophical health consists in realizing that our true self is the natural man/woman, the spontaneous Tao, from which we never deviate. In psychological terms this realization is a total self acceptance standing, like political freedom, as the constant background of every thought, feeling, and action-however restricted. Such acceptance of oneself is the condition of that underlying integrity, sincerity, and peace of heart which, in the sage, endures beneath every disturbance. It is, in short, a deeply inward consent to be just exactly what we are and to feel just exactly what we are feeling at every moment, even before what we are has been changed, however slightly, by accepting it. It is the recognition that "all things are lawful for me," even if "not all are expedient". Stated boldly, if crudely, it is the insight that whatever we are just now, that is now what we should ideally be. For enlightenment, or accord with the Tao, remains unrealized as long as it is considered as a specific state to be attained, and for which there are tests and standards of success. It is much rather freedom to be the failure that one is.


Unlikely as it may seem, this outrageous and nonmoral freedom is the basis of all mental and spiritual wholeness, provided that it seeks no result. But so full an acceptance includes also this seeking, along with just anything that on happens to be doing or feeling. The apparently extreme passivity of this acceptance is, however, creative because it permits one to be all of a piece, to be good, bad, indifferent, or merely confused, with a whole heart. To act or grow creatively we must begin from where we are, but we cannot begin at all if we are not "all here" without reservation or regret. Lacking self-acceptance, we are always at odds with our point of departure, always doubting the ground on which we stand, always so divided against ourselves that we cannot act with sincerity. Apart from self-acceptance as the groundwork of thought and action, every attempt at spiritual or moral discipline is the fruitless struggle of a mind that is split asunder and insincere. It is the freedom which is the essential basis of self-restraint.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/06/05 06:15 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Icelander]
    #4626181 - 09/06/05 05:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Pay close attention now as this happens rarely: I agree completely.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4626201 - 09/06/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It is, in short, a deeply inward consent to be just exactly what we are and to feel just exactly what we are feeling at every moment, even before what we are has been changed, however slightly, by accepting it.




This hints at, but does not directly say, that we can even accept that there are things about ourselves which we cannot yet accept.

I like this idea. I think total acceptance of self can be used as a bludgeon just as much as any other "self-improvement" dogma.

But if we allow ourselves the freedom to be self-rejecting, judgmental, fearful, frozen, etc... and hold ourselves in love just because we exist...then there is real room to breathe and live.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Veritas]
    #4626235 - 09/06/05 06:13 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"I like this idea. I think total acceptance of self can be used as a bludgeon just as much as any other "self-improvement" dogma."

Yes, but total self acceptance is required for total self responsibility. Refusing to accept responsibility for ourselves is the refusal to accept ourselves as we are.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4626319 - 09/06/05 06:34 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i see a lot of parallels between toaism and zen. i remember reading a zen book saying that instead of trying to free ourselves from delusion we should simply accept that we are deluded and not let it bother us. than we can begin to observe the process of delusion and through our understanding it will begin to dissapear.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Veritas]
    #4626342 - 09/06/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But if we allow ourselves the freedom to be self-rejecting, judgmental, fearful, frozen, etc... and hold ourselves in love just because we exist...then there is real room to breathe and live.




--------------------

You got it. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4626345 - 09/06/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps full self-awareness is a pre-requisite for personal responsibility, but not total self-acceptance.

While the work is in progress, IMO it can be limiting to believe that only total acceptance of everything about yourself will do.

Why keep beating yourself up over your lack of ability to achieve the "pinnacle," when you could accept where you are and continue with the inner work which may lead you to total acceptance?


Edited by Veritas (09/06/05 06:40 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Veritas]
    #4626366 - 09/06/05 06:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

To conduct one's life according to the Tao,
is to conduct one's life without regrets;
to realize that potential within oneself
which is of benefit to all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Veritas]
    #4627380 - 09/06/05 10:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I can embrace my shortcomings while striving to be better without self recrimination and self-loathing. I always strive to do better, but I left guilt back down along the path a ways back. I accept without guilt or pride both the positive and the negative aspects of myself. One should never beat one's self up. You try and if you fail you learn why and try again. No guilt or self punishment involved.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4629039 - 09/07/05 10:01 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I can admire someone who can always do this. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Deviate]
    #4629667 - 09/07/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
i see a lot of parallels between toaism and zen. i remember reading a zen book saying that instead of trying to free ourselves from delusion we should simply accept that we are deluded and not let it bother us. than we can begin to observe the process of delusion and through our understanding it will begin to dissapear.




I really like that actually.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4629675 - 09/07/05 01:53 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

You seem to be unusually wise and skillful in your practice of Life!  Obviously my point does not apply to you, or to others who have reached the point of truce with their own faults.  :heart:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4629696 - 09/07/05 01:58 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, but total self acceptance is required for total self responsibility. Refusing to accept responsibility for ourselves is the refusal to accept ourselves as we are.

Can't I accept my irresponsibility?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Icelander]
    #4629980 - 09/07/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stated boldly, if crudely, it is the insight that whatever we are just now, that is now what we should ideally be. For enlightenment, or accord with the Tao, remains unrealized as long as it is considered as a specific state to be attained, and for which there are tests and standards of success. It is much rather freedom to be the failure that one is.




:thumbup:

This is what most people forget. Even the act of telling someone that you can't find enlightenment by looking for it does nothing for them, because they will only begin to think for themselves when they realize everything for themselves. You can never escape from the previously trod paths by following other sheep; in my opinion, the best way to do this is to give up all previous beliefs and prejudices acquired and simplify everything to its utmost. Accept nothing at face value, and accept nothing without first discarding it and then rediscovering it, even this statement. Otherwise, you could simply be hauling ancient prejudices into an already weighed-down mind.

I don't agree with the concepts of oneness, because I believe that all there is that is part of us, we are experiencing in this moment. I am not experiencing oneness in this moment, nor am I experiencing God, so in my opinion they are not part of reality and therefore are extra; they do not simplify, but expand and add air pockets into an otherwise pure philosophy. We can gain knowledge, hone our body and mind, but we can never truely grow, because the experience is of the same nature no matter what path we take. Even those who follow others have the same nature of an experience as I do, despite any differences in philosophy; the true difference is simply one of minor details, and how much we want to add onto the dirt of the path.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Ravus]
    #4630042 - 09/07/05 03:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"This is what most people forget. Even the act of telling someone that you can't find enlightenment by looking for it does nothing for them, because they will only begin to think for themselves when they realize everything for themselves. You can never escape from the previously trod paths by following other sheep; in my opinion, the best way to do this is to give up all previous beliefs and prejudices acquired and simplify everything to its utmost. Accept nothing at face value, and accept nothing without first discarding it and then rediscovering it, even this statement. Otherwise, you could simply be hauling ancient prejudices into an already weighed-down mind."

agreed

"I don't agree with the concepts of oneness, because I believe that all there is that is part of us, we are experiencing in this moment. I am not experiencing oneness in this moment, nor am I experiencing God, so in my opinion they are not part of reality and therefore are extra; they do not simplify, but expand and add air pockets into an otherwise pure philosophy. We can gain knowledge, hone our body and mind, but we can never truely grow, because the experience is of the same nature no matter what path we take. Even those who follow others have the same nature of an experience as I do, despite any differences in philosophy; the true difference is simply one of minor details, and how much we want to add onto the dirt of the path. "

are you sure you're not experiencing oneness? are you not experiencing one reality right now? does the world not dissapear when you fall asleep?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Deviate]
    #4630384 - 09/07/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Are you aware enough to know consciously everything that your brain is experiencing? Can you experience more with practice? Is there an upper limit to what the brain can experience consciously?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Icelander]
    #4630419 - 09/07/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Are you aware enough to know consciously everything that your brain is experiencing? Can you experience more with practice? Is there an upper limit to what the brain can experience consciously?




I believe the brain most definitely has a limit. The brain isn't infinite, nor does it have an infinite amount of storage area, so logically it cannot store infinite data either, or experience infinitely. If it cannot experience infinitely, then this means there must be a limit, though I imagine very few humans could ever come close to reaching it.

With the progression of time, entropy will increase. Because of this, I do not think the experience can last very long; even in our relatively short lives the brain will often begin to shut down for many people, which also strongly affects their "mind", if there is indeed any difference. Once the hardware begins to malfunction, the software will also crash. Awareness could never come close to actually comprehending all aspects of the brain in my opinion, because you're not made to comprehend each of the cells in your brain, and each of their interactions and the way they form consciousness; this would take massive amounts of energy without giving us anything back in terms of fitness to survive (fitness worth the energy that is; it may give us an advantage, but not nearly enough to compensate).


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoist self acceptance. [Re: Ravus]
    #4630718 - 09/07/05 06:21 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Well, that most definite limit my be able to encompass our known Universe. We don't know.

Being in the human form definitely gives the feeling of separateness. Yet there are times when I have expanded or contracted that feeling. We don't really know what we are capable of. But to know Tao in our material form seems impossible. I like the feeling of empathy and don't like the feeling of separateness as much. So it may come down to what one emphasizes. And that seems to have some limits at this time. Yet I don't know what every person or thing is able to perceive. I try to keep pushing my boundaries here. It's the fun of exploring. It's also painful and scary. But that's exciting too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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