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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MushmanTheManic] * 1
    #4627000 - 09/06/05 07:14 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.




I would have agreed with you even more if you just said, "There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here." Reproduction is just as meaningless as anything else.
There is really no reason for us to be concerned with future generations. It doesn't matter. If humanity continues or not, the universe will still roll along as it always has.




It is true that on a personal level, our meaning is not reproduction; that is simply on the biological level. Reproduction has no foresight, as Darwinism only works in the present. Mutations do not plan for the future, but instead adapt to their current environment. So this "meaning" is anything but really; it is, in actuality, a logical process of constantly adapting to the present, without consciousness or meaning. It is simply a base biological duty to much life. Luckily, humans have evolved to think beyond the base biological duties, to the point that we have no biological responsibilities, not even our own survival as suicide shows.

The real difference between humans and the rest of the animals is that we don't have to follow our biological "purpose" if you will developed by natural selection. We don't have to survive, or expand, or reproduce; our brains have developed to such a size that some aspects of human life almost go against survival. Not that it really matters though. All the animals living in the present, simply reproducing and surviving until they die, will die off eventually just as we will; Darwinism has no foresight, and therefore the biological purpose of life, if you want to call it that, is a single blink of the eye that acts only to flex its own muscles.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: psychomime]
    #4627506 - 09/06/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psychomime said:
Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.




Tell me, how can we go on without meaning? Yet meaning can be found by at any street corner; there are plenty willing to give you meaning for free. All that's required is faith. But I intuitively know this is not true meaning, because their meaning doesn't correspond to my reality. I can't mathematically prove it, but in my reality, meaning has to be absolute; I do not consider one person's opiate to be the universe's law.

Nihilism is the belief that nothing has any meaning or value. Everything humans believe is simply another opiate to take the edge off of a harsh, short existence. Science is just the theorizing of knowledge, but even science is simply a human opiate; many do not believe the theories, and the theories themselves are not absolute. They are constantly evolving and changing. To put your life into religion is to lay your foundation upon shallow, black water; to put your life into science is to put build your house upon a constantly shifting fault line. Either way, the only meaning we derive is the meaning that we ourselves put in there; if you add a marble into a chemical experiment, chances are you'll get a marble back out. But the marble itself is unchanged by the experiment; we simply forgot we put it in the there in the first place.

Nihilism cleans the slate, but it is not redemption, because there is nothing to redeem us from. There is nowhere we're trying to go besides death, and death takes no gifts or salvation; your body will fail the same whether you are a scientific Nihilist or a pope. Just like biologically the only purpose for life is to survive and reproduce, the only path we know we're all following is a temporary one, even if this does not decipher the nature of the path itself.

If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4627523 - 09/06/05 09:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You cannot find meaning in a religion, you give meaning to a religion. Meaning is subjective, even to the most ardent believer (though many will be hesitant to admit it). If life's pointless all you have to do is give it a point. Nihilism is a dead end. If nothing matters, choose to make something matter - there doesn't have to be a reason other than it's what you like, it doesn't have to make cosmic sense. Choose hedonism and have fun, you're gonna die anyway so WTF?

Just my take on it.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4627546 - 09/06/05 09:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus: You say you can't accept whatever meaning because you know it's not a true meaning....

there is no true meaning...so even the true meaning is not true.

So basically....all meanings are equal.

Edited by MJF (09/06/05 09:15 PM)

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4627577 - 09/06/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How can I call something that has already happened "wrong"? Would that take away the action, or make the suffering less, or serve any purpose?




it would serve a purpose- being honest with oneself. you're talking like you can apprehend objective reality and see it's valueless. yet there is no reality without a subject perceiving it. all subjects have values. nihilism IMO is like denying one's inner capacity for judgment. denying this capacity makes one weak.

Quote:

We can label actions any way we want, but that doesn't mean the label is logical. We might call it wrong to arbitrarily harm someone, but in the end both right and wrong actions are the same; the distinction is only the superficial label. The actions themselves are both real in this universe, both utilize the same energy and wave particles.




what are energy and wave particles without observers to perceive them?

Quote:

Would you call it wrong for a meteor to slam into the earth and wipe out almost all multicellular life?




it's something i don't want. isn't knowing what i want useful to me?

it's like, people always give their opinions without prefacing, "i think, i believe, i prefer." because, for each person, their own subjective reality appears objective. when i talk about "the objective world", obviously i'm talking about my own subjective world.

i believe you're a naked mammal that experiences pleasure and pain, sadness and joy like every other naked mammal. thus i believe that you have values. what are values besides one's own real preferences?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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OfflineMJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4627611 - 09/06/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup: nice post.

seeking pleasure and avoiding pain...is a pretty good meaning

Edited by MJF (09/06/05 09:23 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
    #4628101 - 09/06/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

MJF said:
Ok so there is no meaning?

Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.




Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.




Is that why the rich and powerful find it ok to pursue their happiness at the expense of others?




No.
"For Epicurus, the highest pleasure (tranquility and freedom from fear) was obtained by knowledge, friendship, and living a virtuous and temperate life...Epicureanism is probably the first philosophical school which introduced the social contract, in that the laws established by this school of thought are based on mutual agreement, not divine decree..."

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4628825 - 09/07/05 04:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Letting go and relaxing are the greatest advantages of pleasant nihilism.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4629023 - 09/07/05 07:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

psychomime said:
Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.




Tell me, how can we go on without meaning? Yet meaning can be found by at any street corner; there are plenty willing to give you meaning for free. All that's required is faith. But I intuitively know this is not true meaning, because their meaning doesn't correspond to my reality. I can't mathematically prove it, but in my reality, meaning has to be absolute; I do not consider one person's opiate to be the universe's law.

Nihilism is the belief that nothing has any meaning or value. Everything humans believe is simply another opiate to take the edge off of a harsh, short existence. Science is just the theorizing of knowledge, but even science is simply a human opiate; many do not believe the theories, and the theories themselves are not absolute. They are constantly evolving and changing. To put your life into religion is to lay your foundation upon shallow, black water; to put your life into science is to put build your house upon a constantly shifting fault line. Either way, the only meaning we derive is the meaning that we ourselves put in there; if you add a marble into a chemical experiment, chances are you'll get a marble back out. But the marble itself is unchanged by the experiment; we simply forgot we put it in the there in the first place.

Nihilism cleans the slate, but it is not redemption, because there is nothing to redeem us from. There is nowhere we're trying to go besides death, and death takes no gifts or salvation; your body will fail the same whether you are a scientific Nihilist or a pope. Just like biologically the only purpose for life is to survive and reproduce, the only path we know we're all following is a temporary one, even if this does not decipher the nature of the path itself.

If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.




Very good Ravus. :thumbup: Right out of Castanada or the Tao. I wouldn't say that any path you take is useless though. One path may bring more energy for your experiencing of Tao. That would be your path with heart. But all the paths are equal if that's what you mean by useless.

I really like your post. I can tell that you have looked deeply into these questions. Keep going and report back. You're one of best thinkers here. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Icelander]
    #4629911 - 09/07/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So why take any paths at all Icelander? Is the experience enough of a reason to suffer the blows of time, even if the experience doesn't lead anywhere outside of itself? Is a universe without understanding and inherent value a universe fit for human consciousness?

"Of course," one would say, "such a vicious thing as human consciousness could not evolve anywhere else but in such a meaningless universe. Heaven would not evolve to any great lengths; neither would life grow without suffering and extinction." What does not kill me makes me stronger, but this quote doesn't just apply to us individually; it applies to all life. And the lack of meaning in the universe may make meaningless lives, but at least it hasn't killed us; perhaps such a universe is the only one we can exist in.

Existence lies beyond our comprehension, as does infinity; birth and death are simply two points on a line, and after we cross the latter the line inexplicably seems to end. One must occassionally wonder why the former point exists at all.




Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4630248 - 09/07/05 02:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Very beautiful Ravus, you captured a pure feeling.

Why take a path? Because you can't help it. Everything is a path. So choose one. Based on your innermost predilection. To survive the path of knowledge one must be a warrior. You know that Ravus. That means that every thing is a battle. The reward is to experience more and more of Tao. That is a path with heart. The Universe asks this one question. How much can you take? What does that mean? It means how much can you experience with your awareness. How much can you feel love and hate and loss and fullness. We are perceivers. That is our job in the Universe. To choose to experience only black or white, love or hate, joy or pain is to deny our heritage and is an unnecessary loss. Using death as our adviser we begin to use our time wisely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Nihilism [Re: dblaney]
    #4630303 - 09/07/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney18 said:
The only thing I have to add is that nihilism CAN be a depressing philosophy. 




if nihlism is a depressing philosophy, then the suspossed philosophy wasn't nihilisim at all. :smirk:

Any conclusion that nihlism is depressing is baseless through nihlism itself.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4630321 - 09/07/05 02:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Human emotional responses are always there, like the ashes from a leftover blaze. But the emotional responses themselves are not the philosophy, nor are they descriptive of the philosophy; they are simply byproducts.

With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective. One man's depressing philosophy is another man's liberating enlightenment; it all simply depends on what kind of weight we want to carry around.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4630366 - 09/07/05 02:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Right on. I myself have carried negative emotional states (fear, guilt, shame, insecurity,) most of my life. The legacy of my childhood indoctrination. To the best of my ability I want to try the opposite for awhile and balance things out a little. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4630479 - 09/07/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective.




"objectivity" may be possible in the sense that a person can talk about facts, such as whether the earth is flat or round; but nihilism is a value statement. it asserts the nonexistence of "objective values," which are necessarily the philosopher's values.

we're the fatalistic interaction of desire and reality.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4631765 - 09/07/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.




perhaps not a nihilist in your own fatalistic definition but a nihilist none the less. Nihilism confirms the validity of all subjective paths as all paths are objectively meaningless. faith is the most important aspect of nihilism. faith is the mechanism by which one may follow their path. I acknowledge that my faith is objectively meaningless but that does not negate its value to me. you yourself have faith. Only you've placed it in the belief that no path you take would have any meaning. While you are right objectively, whether you're right subjectively is entirely up to you.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: psychomime]
    #4631833 - 09/07/05 08:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nihilism confirms the validity of all subjective paths as all paths are objectively meaningless. faith is the most important aspect of nihilism. faith is the mechanism by which one may follow their path




Nihilism could care less about the paths. All Nihilism does is destroy them; after that, it's up to you to transcend it and become your own human being. But Nihilism in and of itself destroys meaning and value; it doesn't affirm anything, because to affirm something would place value or priority in it, which, of course, Nihilism doesn't have. In a meaningless void, standing still is the same as moving forward, or walking backwards.

Nihilism simply states that the universe, especially human life, is lacking any meaning or value. Does this affirm faith? Well, no; it seems to be the opposite of faith, since faith is a type of hope for meaning. We have "faith" in God, because we hope that he is real and contains the ultimate meaning. There's no way to verify it. If faith was allowable in Nihilism, then you could potentially have a theistic Nihilist, which is, of course, an absurdity.

Extreme Nihilism with faith in nothing, not even subjective knowledge, becomes Absurdism, which I do not subscribe to, otherwise I wouldn't be making this post right now. So the most faith any Nihilist will have is faith in his subjective knowledge, and this would indeed not allow for all paths unless he purposely became delusional while still believing in nothing. But faith in subjective knowledge would allow for subjective meaning, which is contradictary to true Nihilism, so is Absurdism the only pure type of Nihilism? Everything else has these poison drops of faith and hope mixed into distilled water, ultimately leaving a product much less poisoned than the alternatives, but still poisoned nonetheless.

If you deny Absurdism, then what basis do you have for having faith, even subjective faith? It's incredibly easy to deny all the mystical fog obscuring our vision and usher away the delusions of God, of oneness, of Heaven and Hell, of an afterlife and of absolute meaning in anything, but after you get to this point Nihilism has gone as far as it can. Afterwards, it's up to you to choose how much faith you would rediscover from your life experiences, or if you want any at all; but in my opinion, faith is extremely easy to overdose on and get back into the old delusions. Not that the answers as of yet have any meaning, but if humanity as a whole can shake off the old leeches stuck to their skin, afterwards we'll have to decide what to do with the old skeletons of meaning and faith, clinging to us like a skeleton with its hand still fused into our brains.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4631845 - 09/07/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

well done Ravus. you're now arguing my point.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: psychomime]
    #4631850 - 09/07/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed I do not think so; faith is still poisonous to Nihilism, no matter which way you look at it. Faith and meaninglessness cannot co-exist, because faith exists for meaning; outside of meaning, faith has no purpose.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4631865 - 09/07/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"faith" is only the belief that you are right. I attach no religious or spiritual connotations to the word.

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