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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Phluck]
    #4612087 - 09/02/05 01:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

People who think they know WHATS REALLY GOING ON are usually full of shit.


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Invisiblekrishnamurti
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4612758 - 09/02/05 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Someone tell you, or is it me you're asking?

I am gnostic - a 'knower.' I aim for Knower-Knowledge-Known to be One.

You apparently are an agnostic - one who 'does not know.'

If you are referring to Jesus, and have not discerned His importance, I assure you that you will not "figure out" what you need or you would have figured out His importance by now.




was for all those questioning their belief in Jesus.

agnostic: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

i will deny that there is a 'heaven', but what 'god' is i will try to learn on my own when it becomes a point of interest for me.

as for striving for Knower-Knowledge-Known being one, good luck, but beliefs and trying to emulate someone else will not take you anywhere. those damn labels suck too.

and ill never know about His-with-a-capital-H importance because i dont give a shit. nothing is important about him unless i make it important.




hopefully my tone of anger will not prevent further argument


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4612799 - 09/02/05 04:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Very well said"

Thank you.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4612816 - 09/02/05 04:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
People who think they know WHATS REALLY GOING ON are usually full of shit.




That's where faith comes in. Faith is simply a highly decorated quilt to cover up the dogshit people would otherwise quickly notice.

Ask for evidence, and the facade blows off. But of course, theology is not science; both the quilt and dogshit are essential parts of most spiritual doctrines, and the superficial cover gives many people hope, even if it is simply in the mind.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: krishnamurti]
    #4612823 - 09/02/05 04:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

With a rigidly defended ego like that, you'll never get it. Truth is objective, your opinion (or mine for that matter) is what's unimportant. I wish to embody Truth as symbolized by Christ. Apparently you do not.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4612919 - 09/02/05 05:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The 'Vicarious Sacrifice' theology of Paul is the mainstay of Christianity, yet 'the preaching of Christ crucified' never was transforming for me either. The Hebrew Pascal lamb which was a creature without blemish was selected to be a blood sacrifice for the remission of sin. Y'shua was to be the final 'lamb of GOD who takes away the sins of the world,' but the whole sacrificial animal thing seems to be a primitive and cruel practice anyway which I never really got except as a left-over from very early times. I prefer the Fully-Realized Eschatology of The Gospel of Thomas to the partially-realized eschatology of Paul, in which Christ is only partially present but expected to 'return in glory' at a 'future' point in time. It seems like Paul was expecting the return of the man Y'shua (howsoever transfigured) rather than a change in Mankind's ability to be aware of GOD (as in Thomas).

The symbolism of Christ dying, rending the veil which separated the Holy-of-Holies in the Temple symbolized a permanent passageway between Man and GOD. In the Old Covenant Temple worship, only the High Priest could enter the inner sanctum of the Temple. Now, with the veil rent, all people could enter into Holy Space, only the Temple was to be conceived of as one's own body, and the Heart as the Holy-of-Holies. The New Covenant therefore represented a more inner-directed worship. Sacrifice was not of a poor creature, but of oneself, or at least of one's selfish nature, thereby allowing the "inner man" to become the Center of one's life - the 'indwelling Christ' that Y'shua epitomized and became identified as being. However, while Y'shua had a 'GOD-mysticism,' Paul in turn spoke of a 'Christ-mysticism,' never of a GOD-mysticism. That degree of cosmic 'familiarity' was assigned to Y'shua alone in a 'Son-Father' idiom.

If Christians were to develop an inner life after Y'shua's Way, it would be different from Christ-mysticism which eventually became identified with the Sacramental Eucharist meted out by the controlling priesthood, just like the Hebrew priests had monopolized the Holy-of-Holies, only now, the Gentiles were in charge and the ritual changed.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleTien
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4613875 - 09/02/05 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know if Jesus had ever existed..he might have, or maybe not. They never found the body..so
For all we know people around the time Jesus was born were asking the exact same question..do you beleive in Jesus? Maybe Jesus was always just a legend..just a foundation for the church..

Pluto


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4617081 - 09/03/05 07:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

...indeed! I think what you said coincides with my thoughts pretty well.

The way your posts are written makes me feel like I need to get back in school or stop abusing the reefer... or both...


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OfflineBamaman
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4617395 - 09/03/05 10:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.




With a degree in theology then you certainly are familiar with the subject of Christology, yes? Anyone with a fair knowledge of the Old and New Testaments who has studied the subject regarding the divinity of Christ can hold only one conclusion. Christ was God.

He created the world(s), walked with Adam in the garden, spoke to Moses on the mount, appeared as a burning bush, talked with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, and ultimately joined His own creation as a man(Jesus) to grant us salvation.

Even if you are not a Christian, one who has studied this subject must come to the conclusion that this is what the OT & NT teaches.

There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son. Always has been. No man hath seen the Father.

Exo. 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Gen. 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, AS THOUGH I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Even in the OT, Isaiah recognized that the creator, the husband, the God of Israel, and the redeemer as being one and the same entity.

Isa. 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

The NT makes it clear that the creator, the husband, the Lord of hosts, and the redeemer is Christ.

The OT prophets had always spoke with Christ, never the Father. It was Christ who created us.

Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created ALL THINGS by Jesus Christ.

Col. 1:16 For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him:

The unknown author of Hebrews agrees with Paul?s inspired comments, that it was Christ who made ?the worlds?.

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, by whom also he made THE WORLDS;

John soundly confirms his co-writers of the New testament

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:9-10 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


--------------------
Diabetes causes hamsters.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
    #4618126 - 09/04/05 01:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I suggest that you stop quoting the same scriptural words that we all have easy access to, understand that the formula 'God was in Christ,' is NOT the same as "Christ is God," particularly if you are confused about what the word 'Christ' means (which is what I was elaborating), and read John Shelby Spong's book Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes.
That reading will shed light on the origination of sciptural writings from within the Judaic tradition. Instead of naively assuming (and taking one's non-critical naivete for 'faith') that the stories of the Gospel narratives are accurate accounts (have you not noticed the obvious contradictions?) of historical events, understand that they are midrashic compilations - collections of my OT prophesies all distilled down and attributed to Y'shua ben Miriam.

I am a Jewish Christian who continues to swim upstream against the current of collective contradictions called Christianity. I prefer to know the Origin, not the later developments cast in Hellenistic mythological and philosophical terms. I have a background in philosophy as well, and no, I have never had a very strong Jewish identity, cultural or religious. I seek only the Truth, and faith does not rely on the annihilation of rationality, faith is 'transrational' and both modes of apprehending Reality can co-exist. However, the discernment of the knower - whether something is mythic or historical is what needs to be called into question. You are being polytheistic and you don't even know it. Your Christology is a late creation of speculative Gentile theologians which has no basis in the reality of Y'shua, as a 1st century Judean Jew or any of His friends and followers. There was no trinitarian theology then and Y'shua would have been aghast at being called God!

Use some common sense man. Think for yourself instead of parroting the Greek mythological overlays of God conceiving a 'Hero' with a mortal woman. That is Zeus and Semele and Dionysus [god of Nysus], or Zeus and his son Heracles [Hercules]. Son of God is a title of OT kings, not a unique title indicating an incarnation of God. This is not Jewish thought and Christianity in its inception and truth is a thoroughly Jewish development.

Do YOU want Truth? Think that being born in a manger lends a humbleness of character to a baby? How about a young Jewish woman who is raped by an occupying Roman soldier and gives birth to an 'illegitimate' (if there is such a thing) baby? Now THAT would be about as humble a character as one could be in those days. Instead of the lone, wandering Y'shua portyayed for centuries, how about a married messiah? Unmarried Jewish men were not permitted to speak openly in the Temple - they had not become fully adult because they had not yet integrated their sexuality (circumcision is not merely a sterile symbol BTW). Y'shua was said to have spoken openly in the Temple. Certain excluded Gospels state that Y'shua was known to kiss Mary[am] on the mouth. They may have been married. Not mentioned? Neither was His B'ris [Circumcision] or has Bar Mitzvah [Son of the Commandments]. Truth has been excluded from the selected writings, but appears in those exclusions. Meanwhile, insertions and contradictions fill the canon about Y'shua. Using you Heart to guide you, think for yourself for a change. See Y'shua for the God-Annointed man that He was, not the Greek Hero in Jewish garb.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBamaman
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4618417 - 09/04/05 03:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I am not parroting a single thing, I am self taught. I was raised atheist by my parents and came to be a believer by myself alone in my living room in the blink of an eye. I had no preconceived teachings about any religion because i disbelieved them all equally.

My moment of change caused me to start inquiring of some of my Christian friends who all read from the same book but all gave different answers based on what they were taught by their parents, church, etc...

Being slightly disgusted with these conflicts, I sought off to study the scriptures alone with no doctrines or belief systems being influenced upon me. The Bible, concordance, Greek and Hebrew dictionaries become my source for interpretation. In some cases I used historical records to get better understanding of the culture, or time that was being discussed but never a single commentary or denominational Bible study.

After about 5 years of intensive study 3-10 hrs a day, with some firm footing in what the Bible says on most major doctrinal issues. I then sought out what groups taught what doctrines. I am by my own definition a non-denominational Sabbatarian Christian. I began seeking out those with similar doctrinal beliefs as I.

I have fellowshipped with many Sabbatarians and have had thousands of theological and doctrinal debates with just about every manner of believer and non-believer. I have spent much time around Messianic Israelites, and the pastor of the Sabbath keeping church I attended for awhile was a former Rabbi, whose father and grandfather were also. With whom I had much pleasure in seeing things from the Jewish perspective.

I am not your typical Sunday keeping, easter attending, christmas obervsing Christian...that you probably assumed I was.

I am aware of looking through Jewish eyes for I am a Jew, an Israelite and of Abraham's seed. Not by blood, as man has ordained such a definition. But by spirit as defined by God. Use of the holy names is nothing new to me but most don't connect too well with such... since most have no clue what they represent.

I have also studied much on translations and the origins of such, anti-semitism that can be found in such tranlations, and theories of borrowed belief systems such as mythological overlays you have mentioned, gnostic writings, the apocrypha, etc....

You have assumed much about me right off the bat. You also assume much about the Iraelites who made as many mistakes on their interpretation and understanding of God's word, as Christians do. Man-made tradition has been the watering down of truth for both groups, and has blinded them both in many respects.

I am happy for your impressive degrees, again much "taught" information. Possibly coupled by a "taught" belief system that originally started in your home as a child??

I may be wrong, but I expect that my studies began with a much cleaner slate than yours... unless you had never opened a Bible or attended a church until you began self teaching.

My credentials are:
11th grade education
well above average IQ
theologically self taught
and
can whip just about any college grad I've played in trivial pursuit...

definitely not as impressive as your degrees, but I'm more than happy with it :wink:

Good luck in whatever it is that defines you spiritually, may YWH guide your feet ever closer to Him.


--------------------
Diabetes causes hamsters.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
    #4618652 - 09/04/05 05:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

gabriel marry jesus


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
    #4618731 - 09/04/05 07:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Every Prophet is a 'projection' of g*d in the sense of a prophecy-based theology, like the abraham-istic one is.
The Jews and the Moslems see Jesus as an important prophet and that is what he was.
The Jews wait for their messias until now and I don't think the muslims tend to define Mohammed as a god, hehe.
That was mainly a theological trick, to make 'my prophet' better then 'your prophet'. Which was pleasently worked out and widened by the catholic church.

In the sense, you see a prophet as g*d himself, you must see the part of that g*d inside yourself too. If you consider this, it is not exclusive.

But it is true, that Jesus never wanted be seen as god himself.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4618842 - 09/04/05 10:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

how did Joseph die?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
    #4619002 - 09/04/05 12:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't "assume" anything about you. You responded to one or more of my posts with a list of Biblical quotations, with your commentaries in between. There is no assumption there on my part. YOU assume that the Biblical quotes are somehow foundational, perhaps you hold that they are 'the word of GOD.' I am certain that Paul of Tarsus never dreamed that his mere letters to budding churches were going to be revered as holy writ.

I have mentioned degree work in the past, but not in the context of holding superior authority. Those degrees represent investments of life-time and the emphasis is on the importance to me of the quest for Truth, which I believe you can relate to. I was a young man in college, and completed seminary when I was 25 years old. I am currently 52 years old, so what you may be sensing is not half a dozen years of classroom instruction, but 33 years of dedicated seeking.

My parents were Reformed American cultural Jews. It is true that my Father did start a Temple, even converted an old farmhouse until the congregation was large enough to build a real Temple. I helped him run wire through the old structure when I was just 4, but my Father was primarily a Freemason, and in building a Temple, he was in line with Masonic myth. He also was a wanna-be "wheel" (his term for someone important). My Mother was a high-strung, atheistic individual til her dying day. They sent me off to Sunday and Hebrew school, but I rebelled in adolescence and was never Bar Mitzvah. I was a young scientific materialist til college when my late adolescent inner life led me to the Satanic Bible as my first ritualization of materialism. Psychedelics helped move me out of that theatrical enterprise to ceremonial magick (Crowley, Wicca, etc.), and then the Light of Indian thought dawned and Yoga preoccupied me, along with related Neoplatonic Greek philosophy. I read the New Testament on the way out of college, got into and dropped out of teacher-training for Transcendental Meditation, got Baptised and entered a seminary.

I apologize if you felt that I over-reacted, but oftentimes a radical revisioning of Christianity here results in a barrage of scriptural 'proofs,' which proves nothing to me except someone's overcompensation for their own self-doubts, and 'proof' that they have swallowed the theological agenda of Constantine's henchmen - the so-called Church Fathers - who were empowered to decide which writings would characterize Christianity, and which books would not. Like an early Jewish follower of 'The Way,' I choose to make my own decisions. My agenda is the Truth, not a political agenda nor any power agenda. I don't want to change the world, just myself.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
    #4619015 - 09/04/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It is held by some (like J.S. Spong) that the Joseph character was an insertion into the origin story of Jesus. It IS possible that His Mother had been raped by a Roman. The idea of a virgin birth was common in antiquity to highlight the divinity and importance of this or that being, not unique to anyone except moderns who only catch wind of the Bible version of it.

Joseph of Arimethea is another 'Joseph' that appears at Jesus' death, sort of a literary balance to the Joseph of His birth. There are different ways of reading the Bible, and the literary analysis lends another level of meaning to the intentions of the writers.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4619102 - 09/04/05 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?




if we are talking abotu christianity, then its the way of a christian to try and spread the good word.


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TRUMP 2020


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OfflinePmog
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4619222 - 09/04/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

why is it that people believe that other people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others? :P

And so what?

It takes two, to tango..


--------------------
Life! = !Life

Life = birthing
Life = dying

!life = death <-> birth = life!
--------------------
:frown: !LIVE! :smile:
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OfflineMJF
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4620020 - 09/04/05 07:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

so did jospeh raise him as his son?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
    #4620069 - 09/04/05 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Look, I wasn't there, so only GOD knows for sure. The Gospel narratives are not accurate, journalistic, eye-witness accounts of anything. There was no reporter form the Bethlehem or Nazareth Gazette (depending on the account) taking notes on a baby, visited by Persian Zoroastrian mages, whilst an astonomical anomaly cast beams of light upon a manger in which a newborn baby glowed like a 100 watt bulb. Never happened. Midrash. Mythos. Doesn't matter anyway, only The Way [to Be] matters.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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