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InvisibleRavus
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Existence
    #4618275 - 09/04/05 12:07 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

In my opinion, this question of existence is the greatest question to anyone, whether you're a strict scientist, a solipsist or a devout Christian. This question seems to transcend God, the universe or really anything.

Why does anything exist? How can anything exist? What is the difference between something existing and not existing? What is nothingness? Can nothingness even exist?

I've never actually seen any philosophy or religion address these questions to the most remote area of my satisfaction. So I ask you: Can you create any potential philosophy or idea that addresses these questions? It doesn't matter how crazy or unsupported it is; I'm just wondering if it's possible, and if so, what the possibilities would look like, as science and religion don't seem to have stumbled upon them.

God is often used as a common explanation, but he doesn't seem to be; if God exists, how is his existence different from the existence of the universe? All the same questions apply to the higher powers.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618288 - 09/04/05 12:13 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I said this in another post, but possibility is where existence came from. Nothingingness existed, the possibility of something existed, and thus it was created. Then after that possibility still existed, and is a big part of our modern day science and life. Of course it can be argued where did the notion of possibility come from, but if nothingness existed, then opposite is something. But if nothingess never existed, then we always had something, so either way I think possibility can explain it.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Existence [Re: TheCow]
    #4618292 - 09/04/05 12:16 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Where is the existence of a possibility though? In nothingness? The possibility itself must exist somewhere, so where does the possibility come from?

Quantum mechanics is a potential explanation, but that would lead to the same questioning.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618299 - 09/04/05 12:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well possibility doesnt necessarily exist, but if nothingness existed at some point, then I think that theres no more chance of nothingess then something, so both possibilities existed, nothingness was first, and then our possibility arose.

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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618313 - 09/04/05 12:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

ever since mescaline i have simplified the question to

what is is?

Edited by faslimy (09/04/05 12:26 AM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618368 - 09/04/05 12:44 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

"The most amazing mystery is that anything is even happening at all."

:thumbup:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618749 - 09/04/05 05:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, as you see from my other post on another thread, existence crosses strongly the 'meaning' itself, especially the 'meaning of life'.
All that is left, is the question behind the meaning behind existence itself. All our spiritual design is build to support that meaning somehow.
Inbetween, we find our own meanings of our personal existence...and THAT...could be the meaning in overall !
The meaning of existance is to support meaning itself !


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflinePmog
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4618957 - 09/04/05 09:44 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

stuff is not necessarily a ting, hence, existing stuff.. may be nothing.. :wink:


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Life! = !Life

Life = birthing
Life = dying

!life = death <-> birth = life!
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:frown: !LIVE! :smile:
--------------------

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OfflinePmog
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Re: Existence [Re: Pmog]
    #4618962 - 09/04/05 09:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

""What is the difference between something existing and not existing?""

that IS the difference.. existing vs. not existing.. :P


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Life! = !Life

Life = birthing
Life = dying

!life = death <-> birth = life!
--------------------
:frown: !LIVE! :smile:
--------------------

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Existence [Re: Pmog]
    #4619313 - 09/04/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed, but where does the difference come from, and why is it there?

At first, I thought this was simply a problem of causality, as many people simplify it to. They say, every effect has a cause, so if you go back far enough, what was the original cause and where did it come from?

With our recent studies into String Theory, M-Theory and Matrix Theory, this question may become less revelant; if there are 11 dimensions, then our view of time on the macroscopic scale may be entirely inaccurate. After all, causality is just asking: What is time?

But even if time was vastly different from our current view of it, the problem of existence persists. Even if everything around us is eternal, why is it there in the first place?

Even if there is an eternal, timeless God, why is he there?

Even if there was nothingness, why does nothingness exist? Nothingness doesn't exist, you could say, but there shouldn't be anything in my point of view; no time, no space, no nothingness.

These are the most troubling questions I've ever encountered, but we know the final result; we exist in some form. This reality may be an illusion, but there is still some sort of existence, so we just have to bridge the gap.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4619408 - 09/04/05 12:45 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

:shrug:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4620167 - 09/04/05 06:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In my opinion, this question of existence is the greatest question to anyone, whether you're a strict scientist, a solipsist or a devout Christian. This question seems to transcend God, the universe or really anything.

Why does anything exist? How can anything exist? What is the difference between something existing and not existing? What is nothingness? Can nothingness even exist?

I've never actually seen any philosophy or religion address these questions to the most remote area of my satisfaction. So I ask you: Can you create any potential philosophy or idea that addresses these questions? It doesn't matter how crazy or unsupported it is; I'm just wondering if it's possible, and if so, what the possibilities would look like, as science and religion don't seem to have stumbled upon them.

God is often used as a common explanation, but he doesn't seem to be; if God exists, how is his existence different from the existence of the universe? All the same questions apply to the higher powers.




You can't get there from here! :mushroom2: :eyeball:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Existence [Re: Icelander]
    #4620318 - 09/04/05 07:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Please excuse the topic interuption Ravus. Um Ice, we are expecting a full report on burning man. When's it coming? Did anyone there know about Katrina? Start a new post if you will when you get a chance please and welcome back!

Now we retrun you to your regularly schedule program on evolution.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4620680 - 09/04/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ravus writes:

Quote:

Why does anything exist?




Improper question. Presumes existence has a purpose. Existence exists. There need by no "why" about it.

Quote:

How can anything exist?




See the laws of physics.

Quote:

What is the difference between something existing and not existing?




Self evident. A pebble exists. Nothingness doesn't.

Quote:

What is nothingness?




A region in which there are no existants. For example, a cubic centimeter of perfect vacuum.

Quote:

Can nothingness even exist?




Sure. To the best of our current knowledge, though, in the universe we can observe such patches of nothingness are very small. Even intergalactic space is not a perfect vacuum.



Phred


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4621042 - 09/04/05 10:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Even if there was nothingness, why does nothingness exist? Nothingness doesn't exist, you could say, but there shouldn't be anything in my point of view; no time, no space, no nothingness.




See my previous posts. You are talking about nothingness as if it is something. This is contrary to what nothingness is, nothingness is just that, nothingness.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Existence [Re: Phred]
    #4621055 - 09/04/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Existence exists. There need by no "why" about it.




I can't believe that you are posting in the Spirituality and Philosophy forum. It's like you're cheating on us PA&L'ers.

I am very interested in how you came to be concerned only with existence and its easily identifiable characteristics. Why are you not at all concerned about the origin of Man or purpose? Why do you view these things as being unimportant?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Existence [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4621068 - 09/04/05 10:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I thought ravus mostly posted here. Geez ravus, you get around these forums like a slut huh? :lol:

I know, you are sharing the wealth of the yourself!:thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Existence [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4621127 - 09/04/05 10:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

Quote:

I can't believe that you are posting in the Spirituality and Philosophy forum. It's like you're cheating on us PA&L'ers.




My first love is philosophy. Even in the PA&L forum I am more concerned with political philosophy than with political party machinations. I have posted many times to S&P (notably in threads discussing the question of volition), but for very long stretches of time in this forum little if any philosophy ever gets discussed so I have fallen out of the habit of checking it regularly. Lately it seems there are more philosophical (as opposed to crop circles and aliens) topics open. So here I am. Don't know how long I'll stay.

Quote:

I am very interested in how you came to be concerned only with existence and its easily identifiable characteristics. Why are you not at all concerned about the origin of Man or purpose?




Because the origin of man is unknowable. Why spin my wheels over it? As for "purpose", I know my purpose. It is to further my existence.

Quote:

Why do you view these things as being unimportant?




They are not necessarily unimportant, but they are clearly less important than correctly apprehending reality and planning how best to remain in it (reality) for as long as I can. I need not know whether water was created by a superior being long ago or was created through completely impersonal processes (burning hydrogen) to recognize that without it I will soon die.



Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Existence [Re: Phred]
    #4621160 - 09/04/05 11:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Randalflagg said:
I am very interested in how you came to be concerned only with existence and its easily identifiable characteristics. Why are you not at all concerned about the origin of Man or purpose?




Because the origin of man is unknowable. Why spin my wheels over it?





You and I agree that the origin of Man is unknowable, but we seem to disagree on the fundamental importance of that question.  This dilemma doesn't bother you and because of that you are a lucky bastard.  I wish I had your uncaring attitude, but the question and its answer bother the hell out of me.


Quote:

Phred said:
As for "purpose", I know my purpose. It is to further my existence.





:lol:  How did I know you would say that?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Existence [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4621458 - 09/05/05 12:54 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Opps, I thought randal replied to ravus. Sorry ravus.  :blush:

To much time on the computer. I'm going to bed.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Existence [Re: Phred]
    #4621544 - 09/05/05 01:49 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Improper question. Presumes existence has a purpose. Existence exists. There need by no "why" about it.




I don't presume existence has any purpose; purpose is derived from things already existing. I simply ask why anything is here at all.

Perhaps the "Why" anything exists should be unified with the "How" anything exists, but in my mind they are one in the same; when dealing with the very base characteristic of existence, all the questions reflect the same basic incomprehensibility.

Quote:

See the laws of physics.




The laws of physics are laws created from objects in existence. They do not explain how these objects exist, simply what they do after they are already here.

Quote:


Self evident. A pebble exists. Nothingness doesn't.




Nothingness exists only as a contrast to existence in the human mind, but in my subjective viewpoint it's impossible to comprehend. You zoom in on nothingness (pure nothingness, not quantum vaccuums) and find only more nothingness; you zoom in closer and find only more nothingness. This is almost as mind-boggling as anything existing in the first place.

So Phred, how do you explain causality? If everything has a cause and effect, then tracing all the causes and effects back, do you find an original cause? What was there before all of this around us existed? Was it nothingness? If so, where did existence come from? That's really the million dollar question here; you say I assume a purpose, but that's not really what the discussion's about. I only desire to know something about existence, not the aftereffects of it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4621799 - 09/05/05 06:52 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I remember The Cow mentioning "possibility".





Perhaps possibility is Nothingness, the Fertile Nothingness from which everything is possible.

Therefore, because existance was a possibility, it HAD to happen..

Murphy's Law, of course! "Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong."

This would fit the multiple-universe theory. For every situation in which there are two or more outcomes, each and every outcome HAS to happen, because it is a possibility, which stems from No-thing that is the mother of Every-thing - the two sides to the Coin of Existence.
And spin the quarter on a table, you have an illusion of a sphere.
"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstien

Interestingly, similar to the spinning coin alternating between the two sides of No-thing and Every-thing which gives rise to the illusion of the sphere-of-existence... All that is in existence in this universe is a pulsating energy field, as Physicists will tell you.

Something to think about... Well, I'm tired and about to fall asleep on my vibrating bed. Mmm...pulsating pillow.
G'night folks.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Existence [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4624717 - 09/06/05 07:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

This is not an attempt to explain the universe or to create new theory, but to simply share my view in this subject.

If something really exists it must be at an absolute level. Certainly it would not be absolute if it were partial. Creation and all its infinite definite expressions are nothing but the true manifesting nature of the Absolute Spirit as the Holy Ghost or Holy Mother.

Is the universe not expressed in us? Is it not logical to assume that as the universe is our source, the only source of the manifested is that that can ever be manifested? So if we are an expression of the cosmos and the cosmos is the manifesting expression of the unmanifested, then there is one and only true Absolute Source. Looking for a cause we can differentiate from the Absolute is like looking for the difference between me, myself and I. Can we set apart the cause from the Absolute without contradicting ourselves?

Life from the human perspective is what is manifesting and nothingness what is not.
Can the present ever be anything else than that which waits us in the future?that which is still unmanifested? God is everything that has been, everything that is and everything that will be (unmanifested) as One. God is beyond time & space, beyond creation and beyond this very thought. I think that when some are referring to nothingness they actually mean the unmanifested Absolute Spirit.


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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Existence [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4625690 - 09/06/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Life from the human perspective is what is manifesting and nothingness what is not.




So if you don't see the moon, it's not there? Of course, this an interesting question; most people just shrug it off and say, "That's ridiculous!" but if you ask them how they know something that they cannot perceive, they simply shrug. Human logic is the best leader, but it fails; we cannot assume anything as absolute.

One can logically conclude that the moon is still there if we can't see it, but if reality only existed in our human perception, what would that do for existence?

Let's say we assume a solipsistic view on existence, and say reality only exists within the human mind (not the brain; the brain only exists in the mind, according to solipsism). That means everything exists within us, but where do we exist? Can nothingness hallucinate an entire universe? Where is the mind based? Solipsism fails in this regard, because the mind only exists within the mind, and that thought also only exists in the mind, until the entire case is absurd. So even in solipsism, there must be some external base to which the mind is based (the brain according to science), but does this catch apply to all of reality? Perhaps everything existing is absurd.

I speak these words because I'm already here. We observe physics and mathematics and science because they're already here, the products of existence. But what is at the base of all this? It can't simply be vibrating strings or quantum particles, because they too require existence and, according to human logic, cannot exist in and of themselves. Existence as a property cannot exist as a particle that requires itself to exist for existence to be a property, if that makes any sense.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
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Re: Existence [Re: Ravus]
    #4626180 - 09/06/05 03:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Of course the moon is still there... I would say the projection exists in the human mind. Duality is to projection what unity is to reality.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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