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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: dblaney]
    #4715733 - 09/26/05 05:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Actually, a vast number of troops there (don't have exact figures so I can't tell you if it's a majority or not) do NOT support the war. They are there because either they don't have enough money to go to college, they didn't do well in school and college isn't much of an option, family tradition, or a few other small reasons (friends enlisted, want to be cool, etc).

Many of them think that Bush is a moron and the politics behind the war are illogical and trigger happy. Nonetheless, they fight because that's their job. They don't have much choice.



That pretty well describes a friend of mine who's over there right now. I can only imagine being amid all that chaos fighting a war you know to be based on lies.

Quote:

Furthermore, why is it that political discussions often end up in personal attacks? It really doesn't further your point at all.
you have a febrile imagination
the idiotic viewpoint to which you hew
What say you, John Edwards? <- Not inherently an insult, but I think it was meant in such a way?



Don't mind that. That's just zappa's style. It's the kind of posting one would expect from someone with the inability to debate rationally.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4715818 - 09/26/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

you look pretty foolish harping on the literalty of
something that is clearly a hypothetical question,
but if you insist on doing so in an attempt to make
me look or feel foolish, so be it.

again, I never claimed to be channeling or divining
anything, as you've implied.

is it possible they still would enlist, knowing then
what we know now?

is it possible that they would not?

yes and yes.

hope that's not too feverish a notion for your tastes.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4715857 - 09/26/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

None of the things you whined about were attacks on the poster
His imagination was febrile
His viewpoints were idiotic
He was putting words in a dead man's mouth

Stop whining and buy a clue. You can get one at Walmart for $2.99. With your card $1.59

And you have no figures or anything else. Population group that shows the greatest support for the war.....military families. One darling asshat the media fawns over and you think it reflects the common view. Military families generally hate this woman. "Vast numbers?" "But I don't have them?" Give me a fucking break. And you know what? Tough shit anyway. What did these assholes think the Army was? A tuition assistance plan with no requirements? Fucking please.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4715945 - 09/26/05 05:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

How, exactly is my imagination febrile?

When did I put words into anyone's mouth?

It was a simple question.

But I find it quite telling that you close with

And you know what? Tough shit anyway. What did these
assholes think the Army was? A tuition assistance plan
with no requirements? Fucking please.


which leads me to believe that not only can you
conceive of the notion that people who enlisted
in the initial rush might be reconsidering but
that you really don't give a fuck about their
misgivings even if their were misled or otherwise
goaded by a false front.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4715977 - 09/26/05 06:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think you're missing the point man...
None of the things you whined about were attacks on the poster
His imagination was febrile
His viewpoints were idiotic


military families does not equal soldiers

Tough shit anyway. What did these assholes think the Army was? A tuition assistance plan with no requirements?

No. And they knew that when they signed up. The point this illustrates is that many people don't have the opportunity to get a college education, so they're forced to join the army to get a higher education. Also, simply because they joined the army does not mean they support the politics of the country.

Also, weren't you just praising the soldiers? Suddenly they become these assholes? Show some respect man :wink:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: afoaf]
    #4716140 - 09/26/05 06:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
they are dying for the lies told to their country.

Bullshit, prima fascie, as has been flogged relentlessely. This itself is a lie. Here is your fevered imagination

would Pat Tillman still enlist today?

Assumption here is that you presume his answer would be "no" but you cannot possibly have any knowledge of that now can you John Edwards



ask yourself that question.




I have and I bet he would have. Got any evidence to refute me oh fevered Edwards


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: dblaney]
    #4716162 - 09/26/05 06:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well I saw on the news that Mrs. Sheehan was arrested today. Serves the cunt right.


--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4716189 - 09/26/05 06:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The assholes I refer to are soldiers who wish to quit because the contract came due. I have the utmost respect for those who joined to serve and accept their mission. Different people. Not a surprise in such a large group. Once again you fail to back up the assertion of mass military dissatisfaction with anything other than blather. I included families because that would probably actually water down support.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4716239 - 09/26/05 06:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The assholes I refer to are soldiers who wish to quit because the contract came due. I have the utmost respect for those who joined to serve and accept their mission.

So as long as they believe what you believe to be right, they're respectable, but if they believe something other than what you do, they're assholes.

...Seems like a good policy.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: dblaney]
    #4716291 - 09/26/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

No no no. They signed on. And they have a contract obligation to fulfill. And no they do not have the same free speech rights as you and me and no they can't quit when the going gets tough and that's the name of the game. I have the same disgust for anybody who tries to weasel out of a contract. When you join the military you agree to submit to the orders of the Congress and the Commander in Chief, under penalty of imprisonment or death. For the term of your enlistment. That's the deal. It always was. Tough shit, soldier, and quit wasting real men's time, they have work to do.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: Learyfan]
    #4716310 - 09/26/05 06:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I read about half of these posts, now I just have to put in my two cents...

I attended a protest in feb before the war began, and in retrospect I feel it was one of the most pointless things I have ever done.  I am glad I had the experience, but it would take a lot to get me to do it again.

I dont support Bush, or the war, but I do think  that now that we have obliterated the country it is our responsibility to stay in until they at least have a stable government.  Otherwise civil  war erupts and hundreds of thousands die.  That is worse than staying there ten years and losing 10,000 american troops.

Also, the I believe the whole peaceful protest and slogans like "bring the troops home now"  do nothing to help the liberal  cause and only make image problems worse. The whole hippie granola image has really fucked things up and doesnt help other causes like sustainable development, raising the minimum wage, and anything left of center.

Anything that has hippies attached to it automatically gets no respect from people who could actually make a difference.

My point is that the whole peace loving pacifist tree hugging image needs to go and be replaced by something FAR more effective and realistic. :mad2:

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: looner2]
    #4716379 - 09/26/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:

How about to a soldier that enlisted? That would offend every person in the military who is serving. If you are lucky they would tell you that your a piece of shit, if you weren't so lucky, you'd probably get your teeth knocked out.

.



I was an enlisted soldier and I can tell you right now that many of my friends, good men and women that I served with, would agree that this war is pointless. I have heard from some of them right after the main assault was over, that were there on the ground in Baghdad, who told me that they KNEW that what they were doing was useless and wrong. Yeah, sure there are some soldiers who buy into everything that their leaders tell them, but they are the ones that just go with the flow and don't dare to think for themselves. Mindless robots, programed by the Army to do what they are told and not to question anything. My friends did their job, but they still had the mental capacity to think about what they were doing. They agree that soldiers are just fodder for the politically run oil crusades.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineKada
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: Buddha5254]
    #4716384 - 09/26/05 07:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

zappaisgod said: "And no they do not have the same free speech rights as you and me"

No one has free anything, its all a front, i hate the government.
America, the land of the free!!! Void where prohibited, some conditions may apply.

I was in the marine corps, and belive me, you are a idiot to join. You are right tho, it is there job to kill babies if the presedent says to, but they dont tell you that at the recruitment station when you are 18 and right out of highschool. Cause when i was 18, boy i knew everything, and every aspect of politics. please. Any kid joining is getting pwnd by a government that leads you to belive that america shits roses.


--------------------
~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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OfflineQuantumMeltdown
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: Buddha5254]
    #4716388 - 09/26/05 07:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Buddha5254 said:
I read about half of these posts, now I just have to put in my two cents...

I attended a protest in feb before the war began, and in retrospect I feel it was one of the most pointless things I have ever done.  I am glad I had the experience, but it would take a lot to get me to do it again.

I dont support Bush, or the war, but I do think  that now that we have obliterated the country it is our responsibility to stay in until they at least have a stable government.  Otherwise civil  war erupts and hundreds of thousands die.  That is worse than staying there ten years and losing 10,000 american troops.

Also, the I believe the whole peaceful protest and slogans like "bring the troops home now"  do nothing to help the liberal  cause and only make image problems worse. The whole hippie granola image has really fucked things up and doesnt help other causes like sustainable development, raising the minimum wage, and anything left of center.

Anything that has hippies attached to it automatically gets no respect from people who could actually make a difference.

My point is that the whole peace loving pacifist tree hugging image needs to go and be replaced by something FAR more effective and realistic. :mad2:






--------------------
-QuantumMeltdown

Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.
  -Mark Twain

"The time has come the walrus said, little oysters  hide their heads, my Twain of thought is loosely bound I guess its time to Mark this down, Be good and you will be lonesome
Be lonesome and you will be free
Live a lie and you will live to regret it
That's what livin' is to me
That's what livin' is to me"
Jimmy Buffett

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4716661 - 09/26/05 08:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So the soldiers who ask that the gov't honor their side of a legal contract are assholes?

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Offlinedaimyo
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Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: daimyo]
    #4717874 - 09/26/05 11:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

This whole "soldiers are brainwashed", and "they are forced to join due to poverty" has to go. Any one of the people that were "forced to join" could have gotten a job and saved for college. No they wouldn't have been able to go right away like all their rich friends, but tough shit. Nobody put a gun to the recruits head. Nobody is forced to join. I never want to read/hear this argument again.
Soldiers are not brainwashed either. Sure they are desensitized to killing and taught to obey orders, but they do not follow them becuase they are mindless robots(would you say that to a soldiers face?), they do it because they do not have the moxy to resist. If they are against the war and still participate, then they are spinless at best. So what if they'd go to jail for a bit. Their freedom is more important than not killing in an "unjustified" war? Where is the moral righteousness in that?

If you all have a problem with the war, then you have a problem with the political leaders. Write your congreeman and tell him he's an asshole and will not be recieving your vote or your money. Or better yet, knock his teeth out when you see him and let him know it is because you believe he betrayed your trust.
The people that are against this war are mad because they were fooled. Why take that out on the soldiers? Realize that you are too soft to make a difference in the world and get back to jacking off over internet porn. Leave the people that put their lives on the line alone!


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: daimyo]
    #4718672 - 09/27/05 05:06 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
This whole "soldiers are brainwashed", and "they are forced to join due to poverty" has to go. Any one of the people that were "forced to join" could have gotten a job and saved for college. No they wouldn't have been able to go right away like all their rich friends, but tough shit. Nobody put a gun to the recruits head. Nobody is forced to join. I never want to read/hear this argument again.



Yeah. it's always easy to get up and go back to college after spending 10 - 12 hours busting your ass at some minimum wage crap job. And, then if you spend a few years doing something, most people aren't going to go to college. People get into ruts.

Quote:

daimyo said:
Soldiers are not brainwashed either. Sure they are desensitized to killing and taught to obey orders, but they do not follow them becuase they are mindless robots(would you say that to a soldiers face?)



I've seen it first hand. And yeah, I have told some soldiers that they were mindless robots. I was a soldier at the time, too. I've seen kids come into the Army and have no idea what they are doing except that they should just obey orders. I've seen these kinds of kids be given illegal orders and they performed them without question.

Quote:

daimyo said:
..., they do it because they do not have the moxy to resist. If they are against the war and still participate, then they are spinless at best. So what if they'd go to jail for a bit. Their freedom is more important than not killing in an "unjustified" war? Where is the moral righteousness in that?



Take your ass right on down to any millitary prison and be as righteous as you want to be. Screw that, I'm going to be free. Let's see, go into the Army to get college money, end up going to federal millitary prison instead, hell no.

Oh yeah, your morals have nothing to do with what I should or shouldn't do to cover my ass. Morals are subjective at the very least.

Quote:

daimyo said:
If you all have a problem with the war, then you have a problem with the political leaders. Leave the people that put their lives on the line alone!



Absolutely, including the ones that do it against their will.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4718786 - 09/27/05 07:09 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Democrat Senators voted YEA(29):
Lincoln(D-AR), Feinstein(D-CA), Dodd(D-CT), Lieberman(D-CT), Biden(D-DE), Carper(D-DE), Nelson(D-FL), Cleland(D-GA), Harkin(D-IA), Bayh(D-IN), Breaux(D-LA), Landrieu(D-LA), Kerry(D-MA), Carnahan(D-MO), Baucas(D-MT),
Edwards(D-NC), Dorgan(D-ND), Nelson(D-NE), Torricelli(D-NJ), Reid(D-NV), Clinton(D-NY), Schumer(D-NY), Hollings(D-SC), Daschle(D-SD), Johnson(D-SD), Cantwell(D-WA), Kohl(D-WI), Rockefeller(D-WV)




No no see, Bush lied, thats why we'd be better with Kerry in office! He was... ah... oh, hah. N evermind. But I'll sure vote for that Clinton guy next time around! He's always talking about how the war was a bad idea, I bet he'll even use it in his campaign.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4719261 - 09/27/05 10:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

it's pretty funny to see you get all riled up
over words you yourself have ascribed to my
posts.

I'm not sure who's more feverish, me, for believing
that the nation has been systematically misled by
the leadership or you harping on my (in)ability to
speak to dead people.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: March On Washington (September 24th) [Re: afoaf]
    #4720467 - 09/27/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

One word defines the protest : FLOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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