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InvisibleRavus
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Concepts
    #4603861 - 08/31/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I was of late trying to comprehend the quantum and evolution (individually) and I came to the realization that the terms and symbolism we use to describe science only takes away from true understanding.

When most people hear Darwinism, they only hear the word, they see the primate, Darwin, coming up with the idea, but they don't comprehend the force it is. Darwinism is just a word, but the actual force is a sweeping current of energy, shaping all life with death as its only tool. If you take away all the concepts of language and only comprehend the actual energy of it, it gains much more meaning. Perhaps those people saying evolution can't explain everything are simply hearing the words?

I was then thinking about atoms, most noticeably oxygen which is sustaining me right now. But "oxygen" is just a six-letter word developed by hairless primates; it has no relation to the atom, or the experience of breathing, or the simple existence of the atoms. The word "oxygen" has no more to do with the actual atoms than the word pain has to do with the actual experience; like emotions, the words don't represent anything.

We can tell people about the beautiful experience we just had on LSD or mushrooms, but in the end it just ends up being fancy writing that doesn't communicate any of what we experienced, because experience and existence don't even exist in words. They are external to language; language is simply symbolism taken to the extreme, but this symbolism can never communicate the existence that is us and everything around us.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Concepts [Re: Ravus]
    #4603933 - 08/31/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Words and language are a metaphor for life and experience....


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OfflinePmog
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Re: Concepts [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4603945 - 08/31/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

""only takes away from true understanding.""

:smile:


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Life! = !Life

Life = birthing
Life = dying

!life = death <-> birth = life!
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:frown: !LIVE! :smile:
--------------------


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Concepts [Re: Ravus]
    #4603957 - 08/31/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Darwin's theory of natural selection isn't a force, or a sweeping current of energy. That's a much more warped and inaccurate way of describing it than calling it "Darwinism". It's a process of the most well suited surviving, and the least suited dying off.

The sensation of understanding the theory of evolution, is perhaps what you're referring to. The word "Darwinism" by itself is just a sound, it doesn't by itself induce the full understanding of evolution, but it does represent the theory.

You said the words don't represent anything... but they do. That's all they do, represent things. They aren't the things themselves.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Concepts [Re: Ravus]
    #4603958 - 08/31/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Language is a model used to convey experiences and should not be confused with the experiences themselves. But, until we can connect directly to eachothers brains using a coaxial cable and transfer our stimulus, its the best thing we've got.
And... I'm tired of hearing, "Oh, its just Semantics". Semantics are important! Its hard to have a good debate when you don't understand what your opponent is trying to saying. (And vis-versa) The more accurate you can communicate the better.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Concepts [Re: Phluck]
    #4604007 - 08/31/05 04:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin's theory of natural selection isn't a force, or a sweeping current of energy. That's a much more warped and inaccurate way of describing it than calling it "Darwinism". It's a process of the most well suited surviving, and the least suited dying off.




I do indeed know what Darwinism is, and "force" may not be the best word, but I can't think of a better word to describe what Darwinism truely is.

Darwinism isn't connected; each is a separate bag of molecules, and the gene, some biologists think, is the unit of selection. So what then are we?

The sum total of Darwinism is sweeping through all of us, all our ancestors and all life around us, selecting the genes by mortality and creating consciousness and humans as a simple byproduct. It is indeed not a "force" in the typical sense of the word, but that word best conveys its effect in my mind.

Or perhaps I am confusing the tool with the master here, for I also see death as a force sweeping through. Darwinism is simply the effect of death in mortal, reproducing life.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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"versimilitude" is an endless stroll [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4604668 - 08/31/05 07:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Language is a model used to convey experiences and should not be confused with the experiences themselves.




isn't it simpler to say that language a way of acting in the world?

whence model, symbol, representation? language radiates its own reality.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: "versimilitude" is an endless stroll [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4604777 - 08/31/05 08:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The reality of language is rather shallow. It's necessary until we can communicate experiences directly, which will possibly be never, but language's only truth comes in its relation to our experiences.

A mother whose child has committed suicide will cry when she reads a heart-rending book about suicide, but not because the symbols in themselves mean anything; they pluck at the old human experiences which create the ridges and rifts in the human mind. It is simply running a small current of water over a sun-baked land where survival has died off into pain and sand.

Yet try to talk about something no one has ever experienced, such as Darwinism or atomic theory, and many people will simply grasp at their experiences to try to understand it without comprehending the real nature of these things. They think of quantum tunneling like a beach ball passing through a hill, or as atoms like little balls of protons and neutrons surrounded by a cloud of electrons. But it's a completely different reality, and language will only suffice for knowledge and not comprehension.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: "versimilitude" is an endless stroll [Re: Ravus]
    #4605102 - 08/31/05 08:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

if i shout "help!" what does that represent? perhaps that i am in danger- perhaps it's pure interaction- i say help, and anyone who hears me comes- isn't it possible to view language in purely functional terms?

if a mother reads about suicide and cries, isn't it because crying has a functional purpose? to alert her fellow monkeys about what saddens her. the "symbols" generate the crying- cause and effect; there is no need to invoke representation to explain the mother's crying.

the same for quantum theory of darwinism- what do these so-called symbols mean? quantum theory allows professors to get tenure; perhaps to built quantum computers, etc. the meaning is in the application.

function elicits function elicits function. "experience is only partially conveyable" - IMO escape from the representational problematic is possible only when you consider language as a functional reality.

Quote:

Yet try to talk about something no one has ever experienced, such as Darwinism or atomic theory



don't we experience these via the empirical evidence that lead to the formulation of the theories?

Quote:

language will only suffice for knowledge and not comprehension.



comprehension comes with the ability to apply knowledge.

Quote:

language's only truth comes in its relation to our experiences



what is "truth" but a relationship of power?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: "versimilitude" is an endless stroll [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4606120 - 08/31/05 11:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

ive struggled with this a lot. realizing how much of my reality is conceptual and how the way i represent things in my mind affects my experience and beleifs. there was a time where i wanted to avoid concepts entirely because to me they were delusion. i would get caught up in some conceptual thought only to realize the concepts never were the things they represented. i wanted to experience reality directly because only in doing so could i experience the real.


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