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OfflineNignugnot
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No I didn't!
    #4598303 - 08/30/05 08:47 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I have three half pint jars almost full with rye. Is it absolutly necessary for good colonization that I soaked the rye for a day before I pc the motherfuckers? Cause I kinda forgot that part...


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nignugnot]
    #4598310 - 08/30/05 08:56 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

yes, it is absolutly necessary.


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OfflineNashbar
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4598351 - 08/30/05 09:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

no, it's not...

http://fungifun.org/grain/

worked fine


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Edited by Nashbar (12/13/06 07:13 PM)


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Offlinemushr00mhead420
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nashbar]
    #4598435 - 08/30/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You soak the rye to get propper water retintion in the rye... yes it might work for you if you did not do it.... but very unlikely in my opinion. My best input would be to say that you need to make sure it doesnt get to dry :S


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Offlineblackout
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: mushr00mhead420]
    #4598439 - 08/30/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You do not need to soak. you do need to add water before pcing though, if thats what you mean. add 100-105ml per 100g rye


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OfflineNashbar
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: blackout]
    #4598448 - 08/30/05 10:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

actually, soaking and draining often leads to over wet substrates or poorly mixed moisture between different jars. If you know how much water to add based on the desired consistency in the jar, it's a lot easy than trying to get it right by soaking, simmering and draining. Just look at how many errors could be involved in each technique. Measure grain and water and done. Or soak, drain, simmer and then stir and drain to mix up moisture, then stir and load jars to get even distribution of moisture in each jar, all of this hoping that the moisture consistency magically comes out right.


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nashbar]
    #4598811 - 08/30/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Nashbar said:
no, it's not...

http://fungifun.org/grain/

worked fine for me, only tried it once though




Then you got lucky. soaking it not only helps with moisture levels, it allows certain, bad, bacteria to grow so that it can be killed off by the pc. Otherwise you are lookin' at contams and lost jars.

And all because it may have worked for you once, does not make it an effective method. From the results of your casing pictured above...I would Definitely say it is necessary. For a casing that size you should have had a lot more mushies. Trust the teks that people write on here, they know what they are doing. They wouldn't add those steps if it wasn't a good idea or necessary.


Edited by srgtm1a (08/30/05 02:08 PM)


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4598913 - 08/30/05 02:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I agree. My first run with rye, I just added water and PC'd. Some of the grains had absorbed moisture, some didn't. The end result was 50% colonization and nothing more. Yes, I shook the jars to try to help mix the wet/dry grains- didn't help. When I soaked, things went better.


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Offlinemockeylock
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nignugnot]
    #4599098 - 08/30/05 03:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How did you hydrate your grain?

Soaking is crap, IMO. If you can get the moisture right through simmering, and if your PC works, you won't get contams.

Simmer, drain, and PC at 15psi for 90min(that's more than I ever do).
60 min. is usually good enough.

You guys must have some alien mold spores which are infinately resistant to heat....


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: mockeylock]
    #4599113 - 08/30/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mockeylock said:
How did you hydrate your grain?

Soaking is crap, IMO. 




I couldn't agree more.  When working with grains, soaking doesn't seem to accomplish anything that a good simmer won't do.  Soaking is HIGHLY overrated, and totally unnecessary.  Simmer 30-40 mins, PC your stuff, and rock on.  It's the easy way to do WBS.  :mushroom2:


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Holydiver]
    #4599278 - 08/30/05 04:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm talking about rye. For some reason, if I don't soak it, it won't hold moisture well enough. What I do is bring the water to a boil, turn off the heat and dump the grains into the hot water for a few hours. The heat seems to help the rye absorb water fast and it gets fat with water.

I guess everyone has their own way of doing things. Whatever works, go with it!


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OfflineJSshroom
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: FooMan]
    #4599429 - 08/30/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

well i have done a ton of qt jars with 1 cup or rye and 2/3-3/4 cup water and PC for 60 minutes.  shake them when they are hot as hell with no probs.  I had issues with simmering WBS for more then 20 minutes with it falling apart :frown:


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: JSshroom]
    #4599482 - 08/30/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You can do the WBS the same way that I did the rye above. Like I said, do whatever works for you.


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OfflineAnaconda
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: FooMan]
    #4599580 - 08/30/05 05:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I always soak for 24 hours prior to simmering and jaring. I don't use rye though, as it isn't available in my area, so I use straight white millet, which works really well IMO. I soak to allow any harmful spores to germinate in the millet to then allow them to be killed off during sterilization, also it helps with moisture content. After the 24 hour soaking I strain the millet and wash off any crap that surfaced as well as hollow seeds (which there are usually a lot of). Then I throw it all in a pot and heat it close to boiling, and then taper it off just so you can see a bit of steam rising up, and stir it frequently so as not to cook the seed on the bottom. Once I start seeing a few busted hulls, I remove from the heat, strain, let drain in the strainer for about 20 mins, jar and PC. Never had a moisture problem, and I do a LOT of millet. I hope this could be of help, I will post some pictures soon of what poo/ spawned with millet can do : ) Happy growing.


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OfflineAnaconda
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Anaconda]
    #4599654 - 08/30/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Here are two pretty crumby pictures (because I suck at taking pictures) of a casing that I have going right now that consists of verm/coco coir/poo spawned with colonized white millet, and cased with coco coir/verm. It's doing pretty damn good IMO considering it had a little cobweb on it, but was defeated : )


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Invisiblesrgtm1a
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nignugnot]
    #4600393 - 08/30/05 08:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

well, soaking isn't really necessary, but you have to at least simmer. From the first post...I was under the impression that he had just pced the rye without having it in water at all. There wouldn't be any moisture in the rye then....so in that case, yes, soaking is necessary.

you can soak or simmer, or both....but one or the other is definitely necessary for moisture. can't just PC rye out of the bag and expect it to colonize.

simmering, IMO, is the same as soaking, only it allows it to be completed faster. The warm water allows the rye to become hydrated much quicker than just leaving it sit.


Edited by srgtm1a (08/30/05 08:54 PM)


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OfflineNashbar
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4600413 - 08/30/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

old


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Edited by Nashbar (12/13/06 07:15 PM)


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Nignugnot]
    #4602142 - 08/31/05 03:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

First off simmering is done to add moisture to the rye not soaking. Soaking does shit for moisture being added to jars and yes it's easy to do by just pc;ing if you have the right water mix but yes some of the grain is gonna be dry with this method and some will be very wet.
Endospores can't be killed by a pc, in fact the pc at it's highest is over 150f to low. You soak the grain to germ endospores in the grain.

Well damnit I tried not to be boaring.

The definition of an endospore is an extremely heat-and chemical-resistant, dormant, thick-walled spore that develops within bacteria. Endospores are extraordinarily resistant to environmental stresses including heat, UV radiation, gamma radiation, chemical disinfectants, and desiccation. Endospores can remain viable for thousands of years or longer. An example of this are some endospores that were found on Dominican bees that had been encased in amber for 25 - 40 million years. These dormant structures can be found in several different types of bacteria: Bacillus, Clostridium, and Sporosarcina. I will be trying to isolate Bacillus in my experiment, and after isolation prove that it is indeed an endospore forming bacterium by getting it to transform into its dormant/ spore state.

Bacillus is a gram-positive aerobe that can be found in soil. It appears as straight rods 0.5 - 2.5 x 1.2 - 10 mm, and is chemoorganotrophic, which means that it gets its energy by oxidizing chemical compounds, and organic molecules are its electron source.

Here are some examples of spore forming bacteria out in the world: Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum (both anaerobes) are food poisoning microorganisms. C. perfringens commonly occurs in meats that have been heated (O2 depletion) and then slowly cooled. As these are ingested the cells sporulate in the intestine, producing an enterotoxin that causes symptoms of nausea, diarrhea, and abdominal cramps. C. botulinum is found on potatoes that are not heated sufficiently and cause the production of toxins. Bacillus cereus is another spore forming bacterium that also is found on starchy foods like rice. Its symptoms are similar to those of C. perfringens.

Microorganisms are also used in bioterrorism. One such spore forming bacterium is Bacillus anthracis which results in anthrax. This organism's endospores can survive for decades in animal products and soil. It can enter the body through cuts and abrasions (cutaneous anthrax), or by inhaling endospores (pulmonary anthrax). Symptoms resemble that of the flu, and if it invades the bloodstream the disease can be fatal.

Vancomycin is an antibiotic that is bactericidal for some forms of Bacillus and Clostridium, as well as other microorganisms. It works by binding to the D-alanine-D-alanine sequence so the peptide interbridge cannot be formed. This results in the formation of weak peptidoglycan which eventually leads to the cells lysing because of osmotic differences.

Sporulation is the process by which an active vegetative cell turns into its dormant spore state. This occurs because of a lack of nutrients, or because the cell was exposed to environmental stress. There are several steps to the process which are discussed below:
Formation of nuclear filament within the vegetative cell.
Cell membrane folds inward enclosing part of the DNA and forming the septum.
Continuation of the cell membrane to fold inward and engulf the immature spore.
Spore cortex is formed in the space between the two membranes.
A protein coat is developed around the cortex.
The spore continues to mature within the sporangium (mother cell).
Lysis of sporangium and release of spore.

For a spore to go back to its active vegetative cell state, it goes through a process called germination. Amino acids and sugars are two examples of the nutrients that can trigger germination. This involves the spore swelling, either the absorption or rupture of the spore coat, loss of heat/chemical resistance, the release of spore components, and increased metabolic activity. The third stage, outgrowth, follows germination. This involves the synthesis of new components, and emergence from the spore coat ready to develop into an active bacterium.


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OfflineNignugnot
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Magash]
    #4602898 - 08/31/05 10:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Sweet information nigs... I did put some water in the jar before I pc but obvisously not enough to carry me home... I have about 10 percent colonization and it seems to have slowed down... also corrisponding to when I left my light off and the temp dropped to 72... I had my local shroomerite come by and take a look, he say's to have patience... I think I'll hold on to these bad boys for a while too see what happens... Would there be anyway that I could transfer these colonies to a bigger jar of properly moist rye without risking too much contam?


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Offlinemockeylock
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Re: No I didn't! [Re: Magash]
    #4638530 - 09/09/05 05:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So , Magash, if these endospores are present in my grain, and my PC does not produce sufficient heat to kill them, then why do i not get bacterial contamination when I never soak?

I'm not arguing, If there's anyone's word I'll take it's your's. just want to know.....


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