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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Europe, you stand for nothing
    #4583723 - 08/26/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9075691/


It is not often that Europe's philosophy of inaction in the name of peace is seen through action, but here is a good case. I will assume that Europe will triumph the cowardice of these people and adopt their cause as noble and right, and from that I conclude that there is no great philosophy behind Europe's pacifism beyond simple emotional response to hardship. They are cowards in the face of pain and struggle, no matter the repercussions of their actions. I wonder how many people these terrorists went on to murder in the streets of Iraq? How many government officials they killed that were working towards democracy for their country?



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ROME - Italy?s Red Cross treated four Iraqi insurgents and hid them from U.S. forces in exchange for the freedom of two Italian aid workers kidnapped last year in Baghdad, an official said in an interview published Thursday.

Maurizio Scelli, the outgoing chief of the Italian Red Cross, told La Stampa newspaper that he kept the deal secret from U.S. officials, complying with ?a nonnegotiable condition? imposed by Iraqi mediators who helped him secure the release of Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, who were abducted on Sept. 7 and freed Sept. 28.

?The mediators asked us to save the lives of four alleged terrorists wanted by the Americans who were wounded in combat,? Scelli was quoted as saying. ?We hid them and brought them to Red Cross doctors, who operated on them.?
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Smuggled through checkpoints
They took the wounded insurgents to a Baghdad hospital in a jeep and in an ambulance, smuggling them through two U.S. checkpoints by hiding them under blankets and boxes of medicine, Scelli reportedly said.

Also as part of the deal, four Iraqi children suffering from leukemia were brought to Italy for treatment, he said.

Scelli told the newspaper he informed the Italian government of the deal and of the decision to hide it from the U.S. through Gianni Letta, an undersecretary in Premier Silvio Berlusconi?s government who has been in charge of Italy?s hostage crises in Iraq.

?Keeping quiet with the Americans about our efforts to free the hostages was an irrevocable condition to guarantee the safety of the hostages and ourselves,? he told La Stampa. He said Letta agreed.

Officials at the Italian Red Cross headquarters in Rome said Scelli was out of the office and could not be immediately reached.

Italian government: Scelli acted independently
In a statement Thursday, the Italian government stopped short of denying it knew about the deal but said Scelli acted independently and that the government ?never conditioned or oriented his action, which ... was developed in complete autonomy.?

The statement also did not directly address whether or not Italy had kept the U.S. in the dark about Scelli?s efforts, but reiterated that Italy has always maintained a ?full and reciprocal? cooperation with its American allies in Iraq.

Scelli told Italian TV news TG2 that Italian authorities had no direct role in the deal and that he informed the government of his efforts ?only informally.?

?We have always claimed this operation as our own. The contacts were held by us, contacts with Iraqi personnel, contacts with the mediators,? Scelli said, adding that Red Cross officials had not conducted direct negotiations with the kidnappers.

At least eight Italians have been kidnapped in Iraq, and two were killed. An intelligence officer who was escorting a hostage to freedom mistakenly was killed by U.S. fire in Baghdad in March.

Rome?s handling of its hostage situations has come under scrutiny, with many at home and abroad contending that Italy paid ransoms for their release.

Berlusconi?s government has denied that ransom were paid, but some lawmakers have indicated money might have changed hands.


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
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Registered: 06/21/05
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4583737 - 08/26/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i dont blame them, i would do the same thing to save 2 of my own kind.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4583755 - 08/26/05 01:43 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My assumptions were correct. I don't think you'll be the last one to agree.

The point is you and your liberal ilk have bound yourselves in some philosophy of peace based on all these wonderful humanistic values but you drop them in a moment when you have the opportunity to showcase them to save your own hide.

What did I say in my title? Oh yeah... you stand for nothing.


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4583760 - 08/26/05 01:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

very soon......the red cross will be building car bombs.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4583795 - 08/26/05 01:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What exactly about this story upsets you looner?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Registered: 05/28/05
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Alex213]
    #4583915 - 08/26/05 02:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

They aren't carpet bombing any civilians.


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4583966 - 08/26/05 02:58 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I actually think what they did was quite beautiful really. They saved alot of lives, at great personal risk.

Killing people = wrong. Helping people/putting the needs of other above you're self = correct. I only hope that at some point and time I have the opportunity to do something so profound, and admire these people greatly.

"Also as part of the deal, four Iraqi children suffering from leukemia were brought to Italy for treatment, he said."
^^This just speaks for it's self.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4583983 - 08/26/05 03:03 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I qould have done the same thing if I was in their shoes.

It sounds like alot like smuggling Nazi war criminals into the US to work on military technology when the are wanted for trial in Germany.


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Redstorm]
    #4584007 - 08/26/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Only - saving people, and + killing people...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4584009 - 08/26/05 03:10 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I was being sarcastic anyways. I should have put a :wink: in there.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4584024 - 08/26/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Anisotropic said:
I actually think what they did was quite beautiful really. They saved alot of lives, at great personal risk.




Do you not see the big picture? Are you incapable of seeing the big picture? Tell me how nursing terrorists back to health is "saving alot of lives"?


Quote:

Anisotropic said:Killing people = wrong. Helping people/putting the needs of other above you're self = correct





Gosh, If my point could be made any clearer, but this is IT. The epitome of liberal thought. This is the absolute max in logic that you have come to and will go no further. You do not deciminate any further and hence will never get it. Of course it sounds nice, but it holds no meaning if there is no greater aspect of thinking going on.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Anisotropic]
    #4584027 - 08/26/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

anisotropic said: "I actually think what they did was quite beautiful really"

unfuckingbelievable




Save a few terrorist lives so they can murder other lives?


yea beautiful....



Official: Italian Red Cross treated, hid Iraqi insurgents
Deal for hostages' release was secret kept from US.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/...e+--+World+News

When did the rumors of Zarqawi being severely wounded surface? Common sense says the 'insurgents' wouldn't give up two hostages unless the injured/wounded 'insurgents' were high up in the organization.

they saved some high ranking bad guys.

beautiful...

Save a few terrorist lives so they can murder other lives.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4584105 - 08/26/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Let's put this in perspective...what if the two Italians that were being held were relatives or friends of yours?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4584130 - 08/26/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

well if its a crime to save your people then i guess italy is guilty, put yourself in their shoes, not in american shoes, when it comes down to it just about anyone would try to save their own kind, does it piss me off that 4 terrorists were set free??? YES, does it piss me off that the italians did it to save 2 innocent aid workers??? FUCK NO and if in your mind it means standing for nothing then i would like to see you turn in 4 terrorists instead of saving two innocent americans. whats the bigger crime?


--------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: looner2]
    #4584133 - 08/26/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You see I see it quite differently.

"Iraqi insurgents" Very possibly means people protecting there home and hearth. We're not talking about the people that bombed the US, or even the ones that bombed the UK.

We're talking about people in Iraq, most likely just protecting there home from an invading force.

So... America decides to invade and they are just supposed to roll over and say, "You know better for my country, even though I've personally watch you kill women and children from Iraq, because you're from the USA!"

Would you be okay with it if a middle eastern country had the power to do the same? Would you just let them impose there will and completely change you're government? Would you not fight?

So in my mind, these people save 4 human beings fighting against continuing US oppression. In exchange for saving 2 of there own, and also saved 4 children.

That's 10 people that would have been dead, that are not.

Maybe those 'insurgents' tomorrow decide to never kill anyone again. Human beings are funny creatures, they make up there own minds, and sometimes act very different then you predict.

But in the end, because of the DIRECT actions of these doctors, 10 human beings don't have to die horrible deaths.

These people didn't kill anyone, they are doctors, and there is this thing called the Hippocratic Oath that they take seriously. I honestly would look down on them as doctors if they did not help a human being, because of political affiliations. (as these are fleeting, and subject to change in all people)

Saving 10 people is profound, and if it escapes the both of you, I feel sorry for your souls.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Rono]
    #4584147 - 08/26/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Let's put this in perspective...what if the two Italians that were being held were relatives or friends of yours?




I'm not Italian. I'm of French descent. Because of my ethnic background, I surmise that I would have run and hid under a table if I was faced with such a dilemma.


Edited by RandalFlagg (08/26/05 03:55 PM)


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4584149 - 08/26/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

exactly where i was going with that rono. and i forgot to ask in the last post, id still like to know why the label LIBERAL is used negatively, last time i checked the liberals were the ones working towards just causes, such as racial equality, sexual equality, pro choice. if you wanna throw the term liberal at someone that values life of all walks then ill throw the label conservative at someone who thinks letting innocents die is ok as long as we get the terrorists...


--------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4584163 - 08/26/05 03:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

aaahaha randal, if thats the case then my german ass wouldve started killing everyone else and then myself when it didnt work out.  :lol:


--------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4584168 - 08/26/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

"Neocon" is has become just as derogatory word as "liberal", if not more. Would you care to explain why that is?


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Europe, you stand for nothing [Re: Redstorm]
    #4584194 - 08/26/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

hmmm i would if i ever heard the term, when and where did it come about and what does it mean, i just dont understand why LIBERAL is considered bad among many people, i know this doesnt attest to much but in school(and out of school when i decided to drop out and educate myself) i was taught that the liberals were the ones fighting for the little guy i.e. negroe rights, womens rights, religious rights, pro choice, everytime i hear someone slam the label liberal on someone else they always make it sound so demeaning, thats all i wanna know, is how did liberal go from good to bad?


--------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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