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Offlinemidnightdriffter
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Cubensis Substrates Question
    #4582974 - 08/26/05 04:06 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I've been reading a lot of posts on different substrates and how they are the key to potency. I've grown on pf type, rye seed, wbs, cracked corn, and straw, so I feel decently competent on how to go about growing cubies. I just am no microbiologist and now am becoming intrigued on what actual chemicals are in each of the different ingredients used out there the 'shrooms are in need of and use to become more potent. What makes poo the best? If quinoa has the highest amount of Tryptophan, why not just use that in pf jars instead of brf? Can someone give me a quick overview if possible of the chemicals the cubies are looking for and what contains the most of them or steer me towards some good books with this info. Thanks a lot, I don't usually like to bother you all over here on the advanced board.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: midnightdriffter]
    #4583614 - 08/26/05 12:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That's open to a lot of debate, and since this is a hobby board, nobody has access to the sophisticated scientific equipment to make such tests. It's all subjective. Some will say that 'this substrate' or 'that substrate' is best, but someone else will use this or that and find it mediocre. If you desire a stronger response, the best bet in my opinion is to simply eat more. The potency question has been beaten to death many times with no consensus.
RR


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #4584095 - 08/26/05 03:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

quinoa is expensive and turns to mush {if you aquire the hulled store bought shit}, it may be a good additive though.of course i dont know why people think tryptophan has such a big impact on potentcy.

with around 30 different strains, 5+ different species, a multitude of substrate combo's, and infinite variables in growing conditions, their isnt any best way. As with all things, the best way is the best for you. Keep experimenting till you find what you like and stick with it. Their is a big learning curve involved, despite what some of the arrogant veterans might say, so dont get discouraged when you cant get a good grow for the first year.


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OfflineFoley
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: yousuck]
    #4589544 - 08/28/05 01:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Most mushrooms are 'saprophytes'. They "obtain their nutrition from metabolizing non living organic matter." So things like organic fertilizers like manure or dead plants, brown rice flour are good choices. Mushrooms rely on a good substrate because they dont contain chloryphil and therefore do not undergo photosynthesis.

Because mushrooms do not undergo mitosis either and their cells simply expand, (which needs less energy), what substrate you used vital for when the fruitbodies begin to grow :
"Even under the proper climatic conditions, mushrooms may not develop if the mycelium lacks the necessary food energy." - Mushrooms and the environment


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There were hard times ahead for the people of planet Ventura,
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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: Foley]
    #4589873 - 08/28/05 02:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Foley said:
Because mushrooms do not undergo mitosis either and their cells simply expand,



you sure about that? It sounds pretty absurd to me. How could a 1 mm hyphael knot grow into an 18 inch mushroom in 48 hours without growing via mitosis? Are you really saying that those cells aren't replicating, they are just swelling?

I think you are mistaken.


--------------------
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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4595181 - 08/29/05 03:23 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

The cells do undergo mitosis. Stamets has the P-value system where each increment means expansion across a petri which he says is about 1000-2000 cell divisions. There are differences between fungal growth and say bacterial growth, but fungus does divide; it just leaves a connection between the cells so that cell growth at any point along the hyphae pushes the tip of the hyphae along. This results in a tip that is able to move very fast and with greater force. This phase of cellular growth is used by fungus to pierce through substrate.

Anyway, to get back to the original question, fungus are not so different from us. They need nutrients and energy just like we do. Think of your question as fungal nutrition. Ultimately, there are tons of micronutrients that are needed and missing any of them results in non-optimum growth or the ceasing of growth altogether. At the end of the day, the natural habitat is a good starting place for substrate because you know that the fungus is getting all the nutrients it needs. Now, you could try adding supplements to the base substrate. If what you add is a nutrient that is the limiting nutrient then you should see a boost in yield. Since there are an infinite amount of chemicals and you might need to combine several to get the desired response this question may not be answered for a hundred years. For now, stick with the substrate that is avaliable and cheap and that you get decent results with. If you are using a substrate that has different composition from the wild or you suspect a nutrient to be the lacking nutrient, do an experiment and supplement it and compare it to an unsupplemented. Most people seem to have great results with compost and horse shit for cubensis. Personally, I would rather use rye because it is damn cheap and avaliable, but whatever. If you live near a stables and want to deal with horse shit, you go do it.


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Offlinemockeylock
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: midnightdriffter]
    #4599232 - 08/30/05 04:08 PM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

midnightdriffter said:
What makes poo the best?




That's what the species evolved to grow on. Organisms evolve to fit their environment, the environment doesn't change to suit the organism.
We do that. We find substitutes.

If a species spends millions of years tweaking itself to grow on manure, that's probably what it wants....

And I agree with Roger that potency with cubes is a non-issue. There's always variance in potency. Say you can grow cubes 5% stronger than before. La dee da! If you typically eat an eighth, that comes to an extra .175 grams.

Your best bet with cubes is to refine your technique for maximum yeild. There's your extra potency.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mockeylock]
    #4600923 - 08/30/05 10:49 PM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Hey, potency with cubes is only a little bit of a non-issue. The way most people think about it, I think it's a non-issue. But I know how you can grow cubes that aren't 5% stronger, but 4 X stronger. That's a big difference and certainly an issue.

But to stay on topic, it's not related to substrate. So, so far as substrate is concerned, yeah I think potency is a non-issue. Like you say mokeylock, maximize your yield from your substrate, and you have more psilocybin to eat.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4602655 - 08/31/05 08:44 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

But I know how you can grow cubes that aren't 5% stronger, but 4 X stronger.





How's that?


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4603963 - 08/31/05 03:59 PM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:
But I know how you can grow cubes that aren't 5% stronger, but 4 X stronger.




I would love to know too!

Quote:

mycofile said:
But to stay on topic, it's not related to substrate. So, so far as substrate is concerned, yeah I think potency is a non-issue.




Potency not related to the substrate? That's news to me!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: FooMan]
    #4603980 - 08/31/05 04:04 PM (12 years, 27 days ago)

It would be incredibly off-topic for this thread. Search for over incubation, it was discussed in the last few months here in advanced, and probably many times over the years. I also just posted a thread in pics titled "most extreme bluing ever" that is somewhat related. Bump threads to discuss there, or start a new one if you wish and I will discuss it there.
-just trying to be respectful and on-topic


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinegoofy98
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4606124 - 09/01/05 12:00 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

uncle bens rice cubes compared to poo cubes. definatly a couple times stonger. i would even venture to say 4x


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OfflinePSiFr33k
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: goofy98]
    #4606474 - 09/01/05 12:52 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

hate to say this but the only substrate i know of that increases potency is spawning grain to horse poo , that should increase potency by about 30%


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: PSiFr33k]
    #4608735 - 09/01/05 04:25 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I've grown shrooms off of every substrate commonly used, and a few that are pretty strange. In my experience there is no RELIABLE difference in potency as judged by bio-assay and by people who are not expecting there to be a difference. It takes a lot of times to weed out the randomn variables. But if you do 10 grows on rice and 10 grows on poo, over a period of time give the shrooms to groups of people to trip on 20 times without telling them they were grown differently, there will never be consensus that one substrate is stronger than the other.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4610498 - 09/01/05 11:46 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

wanna hear some crazy shit. recently a friend of mine grew some stuff. fruited them on a cool mist. dried them. took atleast 5 grams to get you to a level 3 trip. threw the shit outside waited 1 week and boom there they were again. took 5 grams again. i was a fucking space cadet. if there was a level 10 trip i hit it. now explain that. same pile o shit just outside????????????????????


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #4610618 - 09/02/05 12:15 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

>But if you do 10 grows on rice and 10 grows on poo, over a period of time give the shrooms to groups of people to trip on 20 times without telling them they were grown differently, there will never be consensus that one substrate is stronger than the other.

I disagree, I have done dozens on grain, and probably 10 poo grows now, with a dozen casings each...I have had dozens and dozens of complaints about my shrooms being to potent, since I switched to horse poo from grains, when then it people would only be saying they were pretty decent. Now, they are "incredible"..theyve made alot of people freak out from eating their usual dose, and even on lesser doses, freak out again. And from my own few times bioassying since I switched to poo, I must agree..I've noticed a much stronger trip, by quite a noticeable amount. I do also add worm castings to my horse poo for some extra nitrogen though.

>now explain that. same pile o shit just outside????????????????????
Better condidtions. Also, there is a report that shows cubensis getting more potent after the first flush, up to the fourth (most potent) and then down again from there. Not a huge amount..maybe not even noticable to a person...but it was only so many specimens, its always different. Likly, their was more fresh air outside though, and fresh air I also think increases the solidness and potency of shrooms. You give them all the food, water, and air they need to get them producing their stuff at max capacity.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4610663 - 09/02/05 12:23 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

i don't know what the hell it was.i respect that fresh air thing. i think that is a key factor in growing. but wow!!!!!! what a difference.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4611632 - 09/02/05 07:52 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:
But if you do 10 grows on rice and 10 grows on poo, over a period of time give the shrooms to groups of people to trip on 20 times without telling them they were grown differently, there will never be consensus that one substrate is stronger than the other.




I'd have to back up Scatmanrav on this one. See, I've done more than 10 rice grows, not to mention whole grain rice, rye, WBS, and over 10 poo grows by this point in time. Straight horse poo substrate, without a doubt, increases potency by easily 30%.

Back in the days of BRF/WGBR/WBS whatever, friends and I used to venture into the 4-5 gram range for some fun on the weekends, and it was very easily manageable. I haven't gone over 3 grams on horse poo yet, nor will I probably ever. Do you think that's placebo effect? It's impossible. I've seen people nearly lose their minds on 2-3 grams of h/poo cubes, myself included. Trips of this strength never, ever occured from comparable doses grown off rice or grains.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: Holydiver]
    #4615651 - 09/03/05 10:05 AM (12 years, 24 days ago)

OK, so we have some different experiences in that regard... Maybe psilocybin molecules simply have an afinity for me and coalesce in my presence while I watch over them, regardless of substrate?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (09/03/05 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: Cubensis Substrates Question [Re: mycofile]
    #4619894 - 09/04/05 06:59 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:
OK, so we have some different experiences in that regard... Maybe psilocybin molecules simply have an afinity for me and coalesce in my presence while I watch over them, regardless of substrate?




:rofl2:

I liked that one! :thumbup:


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