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 gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
 
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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 Acting for Real? 
#4580155 - 08/25/05 03:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is a spin off of Ice's persona post as he has other intentions with the topic and I don't want to derail it.
I want to ask something. Say I think its in someones best interest to drive them away from something I think is no good for them. Say being nice and sincere about it doesn't work. So say, I play act and say mean things to drive them away even though, I don't feel mean and have good intentions.
The reality of what happened is that I said mean things to cause a reaction to a posed reality. Does that make me mean by default?
Are intentions Bullshit related to the actual reality that takes place? Do they matter against the face of the actual reality taking place?
There is this saying that the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
What do you all make of that?
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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 SerioOria
?!one#!>?
Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 566
Loc: upstate, SC
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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is this hypothetical or is there an actual circumstance you are experienceing right now
if its hypothetical, i duno because i believe people can do whatever they like, if i try to help them and they refuse or ignore me, i say 'fine, go fuck yourself over, and dont come crying to me when im right'
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Live every day like it is your first
or
Live every day like it is your last
My ArT!!
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: SerioOria]
#4580216 - 08/25/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Totally hypothetical and inspired by Ices persona's post. I wanted to go here with it and he has another direction for his.
In short, do people use the front of "good intentions" as a BS guise for getting away with mean behavior because they really just are mean spirited but do not want others to judge them as so, so they say, my intentions are good and that's what matters.
Do intentions matter more then the actual reality of the mean words or acts?
Are "good intentions" often expressed, really just bullshit guises for il intentions?
Is that what is meant by the expression. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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IMO if you are "pretending to be mean," then the aspect of yourself being expressed is phoniness. Your intentions aside, you are acting phony to manipulate someone into doing what you think is good for them.
I think the expression "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is more about how often our intentions go astray. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
In short, do people use the front of "good intentions" as a BS guise for getting away with mean behavior because they really just are mean spirited but do not want others to judge them as so, so they say, my intentions are good and that's what matters.
Same as my post really. Just another aspect of it.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/25/05 03:38 PM)
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Alobar
A Bucket of Lard
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 322
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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First of all, use your acting, Gary. America needs you.
As for the road to hell being paved with good intentions, I'd say this "acting for another's own good" fits in there, because sticking your nose in another person's business usually leads to trouble. However, some of us like the idea of going to hell. After all, who's the biggist Angel on earth?
So long as you're not believing in your own righteousness, act away. Act malicious. Act out of character. But never act on a high horse. That's for old ladies who haven't had good sex yet.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: Alobar]
#4580711 - 08/25/05 05:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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That was funny!
Thanks Ver and Ice for adding.
When I would do something dumb as a kid and my mom would get mad at me, I remember telling her that I didn't Mean to do it for it to go bad. And she would always say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
She said it to me so much I was sure I was on the highway to hell.
To this day, I haven't totally understood that phrase as I have mixed views on it. I think I am starting to make sense of it in my head now.
If I get mean, I know full well I am being mean and intending no good and that no good will come of it. If I want good to come then, I act in goodness.
Often, I see parents do things with kids that i think are flat out mean, though they tell their kids its for their own good. You can see them enjoying being mean spirited.
I think there is a difference. Good can come from good and niceness even better I think then good coming from harshness.
Then again, some bounty hunter dude was on TV last night saying his time in jail turned him around and got him straight. Maybe there are exceptions to the rule.
So far,I've only really worked with my point of view on this.
I'm open to any views or takes on it still.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/25/05 06:02 PM)
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Quote:
Then again, some bounty hunter dude was on TV last night saying his time in jail turned him around and got him straight. Maybe there are exceptions to the rule.
maybe he understood the consequences of his actions: crime leads to jail. IOW the criminal lurks underneath and obeying the law is pure utilitarianism for him.
or maybe jail took away everything important to him, left him in despair, took his spark of joy, broke his will, and remolded the broken human being into dull conformity.
?
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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I'm never nice. I just pretend to be nice.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
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Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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I do think that there is such a thing as "tough love". Sometimes you do have to be hard on other people for their own good.
For example, I'm not talking to my brother now, and not allowing him at my house because of the way that he treats people, especially my friends and his family. I'm not doing it out of spite, but to get his attention and make him realize that if he continues living his life like he has been then he will be a very miserable person. I don't like being on bad terms with him, he's my brother! But if I am just passive and polite, and say nicely "Hey, you treat people like shit" he wouldn't listen or change. So I have to resort to dramatic measures. Of course he still isn't listening, but that's a point for another thread.
I don't know if that is the same as "pretending to be mean"... I'm not even sure what you mean by that!
But yeah, sometimes you can be a dick to someone and still be a good person, because it doesn't matter exactly how you treat them, but what the consequences of that treatment are.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: dr0mni]
#4582290 - 08/25/05 11:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dromni,
You presented the flip side to this issue. In a way, you are pretending to be extra tough because you know, if you were mellow and nice about it, which you could be, that would have no effect to give him reason to change. That's why I don't have it fully resolved in understanding. I can see it both ways.
Now lets apply the road to hell paved with good intentions to this one.
Is it pleasurable for you to be jerky to your brother? Probably not. If you said the same things in a nicer tone and manner, it would be easier on you and him-more heavenly then hellish. Maybe that is a part of what is meant by it as in, it's hell for you to be tough on your brother and hell on him too.
Maybe another point is that if he were to change because he doesn't want you being tough on him, did he change for the right reasons? Was it just a manipulation of a person and a situation with no real value in it for him other then, he feared your treatment instead of changing because he loves and respects himself and others. if you end up with a manipulated reality, is that like a false one, hell versus heaven?
I dunno. I go back and forth on this one.
Keep it coming if you all have anything. Maybe one day, I'll get this dynamic fully understood.
I've acted on both sides of the fence myself. When I'm on the tough love side, I don't want to be paving hell out for myself if that is what I am doing and don't realize it.
Thanks for the input everyone! 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: dr0mni]
#4582305 - 08/25/05 11:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do think that there is such a thing as "tough love". Sometimes you do have to be hard on other people for their own good.
A few decades ago, a Texan father shotgunned and killed his own son who was coming up the basement stairs after sneaking a smoke of a marijuana cigarette. The father got off with no charges. He explained to the jury that he would rather see his son dead than addicted to such an evil substance.
Now this may seem extreme and almost laughable if it were not so tragic, but the point is: Most EVERYONE feels their judgement is superior to another's most of the time. Therein lies the danger.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: dr0mni]
#4582342 - 08/25/05 11:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr0mni said:
For example, I'm not talking to my brother now, and not allowing him at my house because of the way that he treats people, especially my friends and his family. I'm not doing it out of spite, but to get his attention and make him realize that if he continues living his life like he has been then he will be a very miserable person.
The only thing accomplished by this is not having a relationship with your brother, the only means through which one interacts with a person. If your brother is not living his life in a manner that will benefit him in the long run, then life will show him this through some form or another. It's his choice how he chooses to act, and all you are doing is trying to punish him to make him act how you want him to act, which results in a seperation between you and him, which certainly isn't going to help him out. 
Quote:
But if I am just passive and polite, and say nicely "Hey, you treat people like shit" he wouldn't listen or change.
That's within his realm, not yours. I don't see how taking away his Nintendo is going to make him come to personal, internal realizations of the nature of his actions and how they are affecting himself and those around him. You can't force understanding, you Nazi. 
Quote:
So I have to resort to dramatic measures. Of course he still isn't listening...
Of course not. D'oh! 
Quote:
But yeah, sometimes you can be a dick to someone and still be a good person, because it doesn't matter exactly how you treat them, but what the consequences of that treatment are.
Such a statement is responsible for centuries of needless suffering. If I beat the shit out of my child with a glass bottle, or perhaps whip him with barbed wire because he left his bicycle down the street and someone stole it, it doesn't matter, as long as he never acts in such a way again. Hey, the genocide of Jews doesn't matter as long as the Nazis got their intended consequences, eh? 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: Swami]
#4582374 - 08/25/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks swami. That opened up a new perspective on this one. 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Love your new Avatar, Jiggy. Have you petted a dolphin lately? 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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FW,
It was nice dromni gave us a live example to work with. I don't think he meant to get hammered by putting it out there.
Thanks for sacrificing one for the cause dromni!
I'm glad he did and that you found stuff to point out and consider goes to show how much we really are not sure of the best way to handle such situations when we "intend good" using not so good means to get it.
The question is, what are we getting as a result when we take a deeper look.
You did provide us with more insight into that FW! Thank you for that.
Dromni, you are doing what most people would do. Maybe you may want to re-examine the actions of your "good intentions" now that you have more to consider concerning ulterior potential consequences to acting tough with good intentions.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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AvatarofAtavism
Stranger
Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 153
Loc: canada
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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All I can say is that I would prefer the blunt truth rather than a posed reality meant to impart a lesson, demonstration, or simply a truth.
You say that being nice and sincere has not worked? If this is the case, It would seem to come down to the barest definition of misunderstanding. You can interperet this as being a flawed way of explaining your point - the nice and sincere method didn't work. Obviously, to gain any understanding, another method will have to be tried, it seems. So, putting on a mean spirited guise to demonstrate consequences seems perfectly rational, and sensible. I find no reason to disagree with this method at all.
Although, it reminds me of a sort of revenge logic, it does create equality in some sense though. I mean only that malice is the poor mans tool for convincing anyone of anything. It's easy to convince a person not to do something if you threaten them with a stick. They may very well never do it again. .. because sticks to the head are bad. No one really learns anything in this exchange, other than furthering the role of sticks in the world. They are great for various sports, truely.
In my mind, sincerity rules supreme. If someone was inspired to change my way of thinking in some way, I would encourage them to try to convince me openly. Otherwise, don't try. Subterfuge does bad things to my head. It's important to be more than simply 'nice, and sincere' though.
"I think X is bad, I don't think you should partake of X"
this represents a sincere, and nice statement. It really doesn't do anything to actualy explain why you hold these facts to be true, or why your friend/aquantance should agree with them. It's a simple example, in no way meant to mock your method at all, please don't take it that way.
Perhaps the problem with your sincerity was similar? You may have come accross as simply stateing your opinions. If you want to change someone elses very way of thinking, you are going to need to get into it pretty deeply. Creating a dialogue, rather than a monologue? ect. ect.. cliche. cliche..
Acting insincere to a child makes sense. They have not yet developed a true moral sense with which to fully apreciate what you are doing. I see diminished returns when you apply this technique to a person who has a developed moral sense.
Maybe you are questioning their moral sense though? Trying to develop it further? Arg, I could drain myself all day trying to come up with lame examples.
better to reason with someone. delusion is not cool.
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Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Acting for Real? [Re: Swami]
#4583371 - 08/26/05 09:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
I do think that there is such a thing as "tough love". Sometimes you do have to be hard on other people for their own good.
A few decades ago, a Texan father shotgunned and killed his own son who was coming up the basement stairs after sneaking a smoke of a marijuana cigarette. The father got off with no charges. He explained to the jury that he would rather see his son dead than addicted to such an evil substance.
Now this may seem extreme and almost laughable if it were not so tragic, but the point is: Most EVERYONE feels their judgement is superior to another's most of the time. Therein lies the danger.
Danger! Humans on the loose.
So true.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
You presented the flip side to this issue. In a way, you are pretending to be extra tough because you know, if you were mellow and nice about it, which you could be, that would have no effect to give him reason to change. That's why I don't have it fully resolved in understanding. I can see it both ways.
Why pretend anything? If your brother pisses you off by how he acts and you want nothing to do with him in your house. Fucking great. That's how you feel. What's acting about that? If you can, treat people exactally how you feel about them and then everything will work itself out.
Pretending? Who pretends? I don't think so. If you "act" brave anyone can see (who looks) that you're afraid. So your brave "act" is not that at all. It is really acting afraid which is what you really are.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
Jiggy said:
Good can come from good and niceness even better I think then good coming from harshness.
Maybe you misunderstood me somewhere.
I went from being a tough kid who used my fist for reason to now using heartfelt reason for the most part. I catch myself getting tough when dealing with thick heads and hearts but even feel like, it's just because, I lost patience and want my way.
That is a hellish state and a if I get my way, the reality I wanted was just a manipulation if I used intimidation and just created fear in another which is also hellish so.......
I think I know where I stand with this now. Tough love in the name of "good intentions" or using the end to justify tough means doesn't cut it in my book.
I have never used tough love with my daughter because it doesn't feel right and I find better ways to bring about good so why should I think it any different with adults. A person can be firm and nice at the same time.
I think the difference is between coming from our heads and not our hearts.
When we come from our heads, we see objects out there to be manipulated to our liking.
When we come from our hearts we feel each other and can't help but be gentile.
To each his own on this. I think I have reconciled it all for myself.
Thanks for all the input again everyone! 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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