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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh.
    #4578738 - 08/25/05 02:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Unspinning the NY Times' military mendacity
By Jack Kelly

Colonel Thomas Spoehr is annoyed with New York Times reporter Michael Moss, for what I think is a good reason.

Spoehr is the director of materiel for the Army staff. He had a good news story to tell Moss, which Moss converted into a bad news story.

Here is the story as Spoehr tells it:

Last year, senior leaders of the Army became aware of technological developments which make it possible to improve the "Interceptor" body armor worn by our troops.`

The "Interceptor" consists of a vest, two SAPI (small arms protective insert) plates worn in the front and the back, and "backing" material around the plates. The plates are made of boronic carbide, the second hardest substance known to man (only diamonds are harder) but fairly light weight.

The plates will shatter a standard rifle bullet, and the backing catches the bullet fragments to prevent injuries from shrapnel.

The "Interceptor" is the best body armor manufactured in the world today, and represents a remarkable improvement over the protective vests worn by our troops in the first Gulf War, and Somalia in 1993. Those vests could protect against shrapnel, but a rifle bullet would cut right through them.

Those vests weighed 24 lbs each. The interceptor ensemble ? which can stop an AK-47 bullet fired from just 10 feet away ? weighs just 16 lbs. But the best isn't perfect. There are some special types of ammunition that can penetrate the boronic carbide plates. Last year Army leaders became aware of improvements that could be made to the SAPI plates that would protect against most (though not all) of these special types of ammunition.

There is little evidence insurgents in Iraq are using the special types of ammunition that can defeat the "Interceptor." But the Army wanted to be proactive, to defeat a potential threat before it emerged.

"We're taking what we think is a prudent step to guard against a step (the insurgents) could take, but that's a step that really hasn't developed yet," Spoehr said.

Altering the formula by which the SAPI plates are manufactured is not a simple process, since these plates must be manufactured to extremely precise (1,000ths of an inch) dimensions.

"Making one of these plates is like making one of those tiles that protects the (space) shuttle from heat," Spoehr said.

Yet though the specifications weren't set until early in January, new plates were being manufactured ? and delivery begun to U.S. troops ? in March. Those familiar with the Pentagon's procurement process recognize this as lightning speed.

The process was speeded up in part because in this instance the Army departed from the normal Pentagon practice of telling contractors not only what the Army needed, but how the contractors were to build what the Army wanted.

This time, Spoehr said, the Army told contractors what the Army needed, and let the contractors figure out how best to meet the need.

"It's our belief that we put the specifications out there, and then we let good old American ingenuity go to work," he said. "We have realized improvements in our own system from innovations contractors have come up with."

The new plates are a little thicker, but they weigh just two lbs. more than the ones currently in use. The new SAPI plates cost $1,300 a set, up from $1,000 for the older set.

Here's how the story was presented by Moss in the New York Times Aug. 14th: "For the second time since the Iraq war began, the Pentagon is struggling to replace body armor that is failing to protect American troops from the most lethal attacks of insurgents.

"The ceramic plates in vests worn by most personnel cannot withstand certain munitions the insurgents use. But more than a year after military officials initiated an effort to replace the armor with thicker, more resistant plates, tens of thousands of soldiers are still without the stronger protection because of a string of delays in the Pentagon's procurement system."


Spoehr told Moss all the things he told me, but there is not a single positive quote in his story.

"You would get the impression that our soldiers were in harm's way or at risk," Spoehr said. "That is not true."

Americans are becoming increasingly pessimistic about the war in Iraq, because all news about Iraq is presented as bad news, even when it isn't.


**********************************************************





Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4578790 - 08/25/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Americans are becoming increasingly pessimistic about the war in Iraq, because all news about Iraq is presented as bad news, even when it isn't.

Please spin increasing American and Iraqi deaths, plus a half trillion dollars wasted, in a good light so that I can feel good about my leaders' ability to make sound choices.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4578801 - 08/25/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

So the NY Times, a notoriously liberal new source, now represents all of mainstream media?

That's like me using The Specter or another conservative paper to try to prove that the media has a conservative bias. I don't think anyone would try to argue that The Specter is conservative, just as no one would argue that the NY Times is liberal.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Redstorm]
    #4578971 - 08/25/05 02:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The NY times shouldn't have to tell the truth because they are liberal?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: looner2]
    #4579249 - 08/25/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There's a huge difference between "spin" and "lying". I don't see any quoted lies by the NYT.

If we want to get into the area of journalistic dishonesty, though, why don't we talk about bald-faced lies like Troopergate and the various other accusations which were made up to stall the Clinton Administration.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4579346 - 08/25/05 03:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I can't really think of any media outlet that is unbiased. Can you?


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Unagipie]
    #4579900 - 08/25/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I never heard of Troopergate or the Specter. Everybody knows the NYTimes and they used to be the paper of record. They are still quite representative of mainstream national media, not all but most. LATimes and WaPost are probably the other three legs on the newspaper triangle. All others are local, even the ChiTribune.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4579923 - 08/25/05 04:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

you mean the newspapers are fear mongering also?!??!?!?!

oh no, phred!


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4580240 - 08/25/05 05:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You've never heard of Troopergate?

I was like 13 when Clinton was being accused of this shit, and I even remember it.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Swami]
    #4580390 - 08/25/05 05:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Americans are becoming increasingly pessimistic about the war in Iraq, because all news about Iraq is presented as bad news, even when it isn't.

Please spin increasing American and Iraqi deaths, plus a half trillion dollars wasted, in a good light so that I can feel good about my leaders' ability to make sound choices.




Maybe you could ask the Iraqi's what they think? No one ever seems to do that.


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"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4580414 - 08/25/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There's different ways to interpret information. His information is may be a bit lop-sided towards the negatives, but it is nevertheless true.

Possibly because people find bad news more interesting to read than good news, and on the whole Iraq is bad news. You could argue it's good because "The Iraqis have their own government," etc., but that's really pointless to Americans; all we see is the ridiculous price tag and the dead soldiers. We get nothing out of it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4580421 - 08/25/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'd be interested in how many soldiers get killed from being shot and how many get blown up by CowardBombs.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Phred]
    #4580515 - 08/25/05 06:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"You would get the impression that our soldiers were in harm's way or at risk," Spoehr said. "That is not true."

That is the biggest load of shit I have heard yet about the war. Our soldiers aren't in harms way?! They aren't at risk?!
What the fuck is this guy on? How can he possibly spin being in a foreign country and getting attacked guerilla style into a safe situation?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Swami]
    #4580646 - 08/25/05 07:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Americans are becoming increasingly pessimistic about the war in Iraq, because all news about Iraq is presented as bad news, even when it isn't.

Please spin increasing American and Iraqi deaths, plus a half trillion dollars wasted, in a good light so that I can feel good about my leaders' ability to make sound choices.



:owned:


--------------------


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: daimyo]
    #4580677 - 08/25/05 07:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
"You would get the impression that our soldiers were in harm's way or at risk," Spoehr said. "That is not true."

That is the biggest load of shit I have heard yet about the war. Our soldiers aren't in harms way?! They aren't at risk?!
What the fuck is this guy on? How can he possibly spin being in a foreign country and getting attacked guerilla style into a safe situation?




Did you follow the article?

The new vests are better designed, weigh a lot less, and are being distributed to the soldiers, but their improvements don't correlate to better protection from the ammunition that the insurgents are using. The New York Times claimed the old vests weren't working and causing harm to the soldiers, which is entirely false and that is what the quote was in reference too.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4580679 - 08/25/05 07:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Swami said:
Americans are becoming increasingly pessimistic about the war in Iraq, because all news about Iraq is presented as bad news, even when it isn't.

Please spin increasing American and Iraqi deaths, plus a half trillion dollars wasted, in a good light so that I can feel good about my leaders' ability to make sound choices.



:owned:




The choice has been made, it is up to the America to carry it out to the end.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: looner2]
    #4580755 - 08/25/05 07:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

do you ever re-evaluate your decisions?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: afoaf]
    #4580784 - 08/25/05 07:59 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
do you ever re-evaluate your decisions?




Constantly, but re-evaluating a decision that has already been made, especially in reference to warfare, over and over again with only slightly different incarnations based on snide, one-liners gets old very fast and does nothing to rectify the situation, if of course you don't think defeat is an option, like I do.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: looner2]
    #4580807 - 08/25/05 08:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so, hypothetically, 10 years from now, we're still in iraq,
worse off than we are now...are you still going to blindly
support the decision to go to war?

if not 10, then at what point and what cost does this
endeavor shift from just to ludicrous?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: No bias in the Mainstream Media, nuh-uh. [Re: afoaf]
    #4580960 - 08/25/05 08:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
so, hypothetically, 10 years from now, we're still in iraq,
worse off than we are now...are you still going to blindly
support the decision to go to war?

if not 10, then at what point and what cost does this
endeavor shift from just to ludicrous?




I didn't support the decision and still don't, but the decision is over and the war is not being fought by George Bush, but by my countrymen. It is this fact, and the consequences of losing a war to guerilla tactics because lack of support at home that weighs heavily on my thinking.

You are right, we can't support an indefinite war especially when the mission is incomplete. Bush has failed the country in laying out objectives, and what happens if those objectives aren't met. We need to lay out contigencies and alternative strategies at each step along the way, and I don't know what is going on at the pentagon but I hope things like this are being done... in essence we need to know when to get out without losing.

But see where I'm getting at? I don't make these decisions and neither should the public. They should support the effort until another viable solution presents itself and that is through a strategy of a new commander and chief in the next election. Bush won two terms and his strategy, whether it sucks or doesn't needs to be played out and the public must not only support the troops, but the war effort as well, because regardless of their beliefs it weighs heavily on our soldiers, our opposition, and the future.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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