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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
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London mayor speaks out on infringements on liberty
    #4576793 - 08/24/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Clarke reveals terror deportation rules

Matthew Tempest, political correspondent
Wednesday August 24, 2005

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1555308,00.html?gusrc=rss

The government today substantially expanded its criteria for deporting or excluding foreign nationals it believes pose a threat to the national interest.

The London mayor, Ken Livingstone, however, warned of the dangers of banning controversial clerics, such as Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who has defended Palestinian suicide bombers, and whom he invited to the capital last year.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that if the new measures were applied against people like him, "there will be very few Muslim scholars or leaders that will ever be admitted to Britain because the vast majority of Muslims identify with the struggle of the Palestinian people".

The Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) said it was "alarmed" at the Home Office list.

It warned that the new grounds for deportation amounted to the "criminalisation of thought, conscience and belief".

It said that the plan was based on the "fallacy" that foreign preachers who could not speak English were responsible for radicalising British youths who spoke only English.

The IHRC chairman, Massoud Shadjareh, said: "The fact that Mr Clarke's final list is almost identical to his initial proposals, despite numerous objections from interested parties, makes a total mockery of the consultation process."


The actions it covers include:

* Writing, producing, publishing or distributing material

* Public speaking, including preaching

* Running a website

* Using a position of responsibility such as teacher, community or youth leader


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Unagipie]
    #4576841 - 08/24/05 11:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't understand Muslims that preach against countries they have chosen to move to. If you don't like a country, why do you move there? Wouldn't it be unwise (or at least impolite) to move to Saudi Arabia and start preaching 'death to Arabs'?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4576855 - 08/24/05 11:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Read the article, it is referring to people getting deported simply because they support the Palestinian right to self defense. Has nothing to do with Britain.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Unagipie]
    #4576906 - 08/25/05 12:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The article does not state that.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
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Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,569
Loc: FL
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4576971 - 08/25/05 12:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
I don't understand Muslims that preach against countries they have chosen to move to. If you don't like a country, why do you move there? Wouldn't it be unwise (or at least impolite) to move to Saudi Arabia and start preaching 'death to Arabs'?




actually i think you would end up dead within a week.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4576994 - 08/25/05 12:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Unagipie]
    #4577111 - 08/25/05 12:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Read the article, it is referring to people getting deported simply because they support the Palestinian right to self defense.




I read the article. Twice.

It says no such thing. Perhaps you posted the wrong URL?





Phred


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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Phred]
    #4577557 - 08/25/05 02:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that if the new measures were applied against people like him, "there will be very few Muslim scholars or leaders that will ever be admitted to Britain because the vast majority of Muslims identify with the struggle of the Palestinian people"."




:shrug:


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflinePhred
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Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Unagipie]
    #4577964 - 08/25/05 09:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That's the standard Red Ken hysterical hyperbole. Red Ken will say anything. He hasn't the intellectual capacity to identify the nature of what is being discussed.

Read the actual wording of the law in question as reported in the article.



Phred


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Phred]
    #4578093 - 08/25/05 10:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That's the standard Red Ken hysterical hyperbole. Red Ken will say anything. He hasn't the intellectual capacity to identify the nature of what is being discussed.





And thats the standard right wing, shortcut to thinking, slur of Livingstone. I know its harder to think for yourself but in the long run Im sure you will be glad you tried!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhred
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Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: GazzBut]
    #4578104 - 08/25/05 10:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Unlike Ken Livingston, I am capable of understanding what I read. The law has no power against those who "identify with the struggle of the Palestinian people". It has power against those who incite terrorism.

We are assured over and over again by Islamic apologists that Islam is really a religion of peace and that those Muslims who advocate and approve of terrorist actions are but a tiny fraction of Muslims. Ken Livingston apparently thinks otherwise.




Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4578314 - 08/25/05 11:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
actually i think you would end up dead within a week.



I'd be willing to bet on an even shorter time frame. A trip home for foreign nationals seems like a reasonable proposition given the nature of what the law ACTUALLY addresses.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4578330 - 08/25/05 11:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
I don't understand Muslims that preach against countries they have chosen to move to.  If you don't like a country, why do you move there?  Wouldn't it be unwise (or at least impolite) to move to Saudi Arabia and start preaching 'death to Arabs'?


:thumbup:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Phred]
    #4578586 - 08/25/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Red Ken will say anything

I havn't heard anyone call him Red Ken in 20 years.

law has no power against those who "identify with the struggle of the Palestinian people".

Actually it does. Identifying with the Palestinian cause could easily be intepreted as "glorifying or justifying terrorism".

It has power against those who incite terrorism

The new law doesn't just talk about inciting terrorism, it talks about "justifying or glorifying terrorism".





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OfflinePhred
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Alex213]
    #4578615 - 08/25/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've never heard him called anything but Red Ken. But I didn't even know his name a year ago so I have no idea what he was called twenty years ago.




Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4578623 - 08/25/05 01:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A trip home for foreign nationals seems like a reasonable proposition given the nature of what the law ACTUALLY addresses.


Perhaps. But I don't much care for the idea of excluding people for saying what they want to say. That's kinda what freedom of speech is all about. If they're convicted of organising a bomb attack then fine, send them back.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Phred]
    #4578643 - 08/25/05 01:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

From the linked article:

Quote:

The list, which the Home Office says is "indicative rather than exhaustive", will cover any foreign-born national "writing, producing, publishing or distributing material, public speaking including preaching, running a website; or using a position of responsibility such as teacher, community or youth leader to express views which foment, justify or glorify terrorist violence in furtherance of particular beliefs; seek to provoke others to terrorist acts; foment other serious criminal activity or seek to provoke others to serious criminal acts; or foster hatred which might lead to inter-community violence in the UK."




Are you saying it is not possible for a foreign born national to identify with the Palestinian people unless that foreign born national also foments, justifies, or glorifies terrorist violence or seeks to provoke others to commit serious criminal acts? What does that say about the Palestinean people? I thought the Palestinean people were (except for a tiny fraction of nutters like Hamas and Hizbollah and their ilk) just poor helpless oppressed and downtrodden victims who want nothing more than to be left to their own lives.





Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Alex213]
    #4578648 - 08/25/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

But I don't much care for the idea of excluding people for saying what they want to say. That's kinda what freedom of speech is all about.




What a pity this is the UK we're talking about, where there is no such thing as legally protected free speech. No written constitution guaranteeing free speech, no Bill of Rights guaranteeing free speech.





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Phred]
    #4578664 - 08/25/05 01:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

No, I'm saying that under the new law even Cherie Blair (Tony's wife) who said "As long as young people feel they have got no hope but to blow themselves up you are never going to make progress" could be prosecuted for "justifying terrorism".


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OfflinePhred
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Re: London mayor speaks out on infringements of Muslim liberties [Re: Alex213]
    #4578689 - 08/25/05 01:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

No she couldn't. Nothing in her statement justifies terrorism.

There is a substantive difference between offering an opinion on why people act as they do and justifying those actions.

*edit* Besides, Cherie Blair isn't a foreign national.




Phred


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Edited by Phred (08/26/05 02:12 PM)


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