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OfflineMJF
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Personal History and Lies
    #4573028 - 08/24/05 12:04 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I just started reading the 3rd book in Castaneda's series, Journey to Ixtlan. I've read the intro. and the first two chapters and I found it strange that don Juan said "I'm not concerned with truth or lies" and went on to say that "one who has no personal history can not lie"

thinking about it though....

having names ans personal histories seems more of a lie than not having them. If one truly lived in the moment....then I don't see how anything they said could be a lie. I really don't know what I'm getting at here.....

what do you think?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: MJF]
    #4573110 - 08/24/05 12:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

lie2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l)
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

v. lied, ly?ing, (lng) lies
v. intr.
To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.

I could intend to deceive you in this moment. How else could I deceive you but in the moment unless I used time travel?

The truth is I was born May 30 1968 in Hinsdale Illinois. That is a part of my history and can be factually verified as a truth.

I'm willing to play with it though. Give an example of how having a personal history is more of a lie then not. Also give an example of how we can not have a personal history if we wanted to, other then lying about it. Not having one would be a good cause for making stuff up. Should we all get hit on the head and get amnesia so we can be more honest?

I CAN sort of see what he is saying about the honesty of the moment. As something is happening that you are a witness of, there is no time for someone intending to alter it with deception to take place. It's happening live. People can take video tape of a live moment and alter it to appear to be something else after the fact.

Say you are opening a gift in front of the giver live in that moment. Your initial reaction may be one of dislike and your face will show it to the giver, even if you catch yourself and try to hide your true feelings. If they were not there with you in that moment, you could easily lie to them later and say you loved it.

Maybe that is what he meant. Non the less, we can't be live in every moment of time and have to take peoples word on things sometimes.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4573194 - 08/24/05 12:43 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

For a lie to be a lie, the illusion of truth must be there; yet truth is not always as it seems. In a relativistic sense, there's no way to verify it. I can't verify your birthdate, because I was not there, and the memory of it could be a lie.

I believe don Juan is saying that all memories have the potential to be false, so the only way to not have the duality of truth and lies is to have nothingness, which doesn't fit in either category. The lack of personal history can never be false, because there's no values assigned to it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Ravus]
    #4573232 - 08/24/05 12:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You can verify my birthdate at the Circut Courts hall of records.

Here's the part that makes what he said useless. We all have personal histories. Castenada is saying that without one, we would have nothing to be able to lie about. How does that information help any of us? We all have them.

If your memory is bad and you say something not as it actually happened, di you intend to decieve and create a false impression? No, so thats a little harsh.

I feel like I would need to read more of the part of the book he took it from to understand what he was saying that was suppose to be of some use.

I like Castenada, never read that one though. Hue has. Maybe he will know.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4573772 - 08/24/05 03:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Even with no history you can lie.
For example, you see a candy what you want from someone.
So you simply lie, that you are hungry...

Don't takte Castanedas words too seriously, they are only small facettes of that what he wants to tell. Sometimes, they are even wrong. But, of course, mostly, they are wisely selected.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4574363 - 08/24/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't agree with it. Maybe you meant to reply to MJF. I would need to read more of what was around it to understand what he meant by it if he found some use for it.

I only read his book "The Art of Dreaming". Come to think of it, it was an interesting read, more like sci fi though. I never got anything I could use from that book either.  :tongue:

I will tell you who is honest in the moment....children are! That is until some adult teaches them how to lie through example.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574420 - 08/24/05 12:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMO the first four books are the only ones of importance. And they would be very difficult to understand without reading them at least once in sequence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574429 - 08/24/05 12:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I will tell you who is honest in the moment....children are! That is until some adult teaches them how to lie through example.





I think this is more on point as to what Castaneda refers to as "personal history." Not so much your factual history as your historical ideas about who you are and how you should behave. IMO it is these pre-conceived notions which take us out of the moment of our present experience, and which impel us to lie about who we are in the present.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Veritas]
    #4574446 - 08/24/05 12:44 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for reading the books. :thumbup: If you read the whole section where this is discussed and in context to the rest of the teaching, only then does this idea develop and make sense. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOakbear
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Icelander]
    #4574468 - 08/24/05 12:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think this is about ego.

What if 'personal history' is actually refering to the ego?

Then not only would you be living in the moment, but ego driven desires would be uneccassary.
Therefore one without ego would not lie as in BlueCoyote's example, as they simply would not be driven to.


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"I'm no fucking Buddhist, but this is enlightenment"


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Oakbear]
    #4574533 - 08/24/05 01:13 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think that's what I was talking about, Oakbear. If someone removed their personal history and lived in the moment they would not be compelled to lie.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: MJF]
    #4574539 - 08/24/05 01:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

lying is a feeling, a kind of indulging. You can tell people anything you want. It may or may not be true, that doesn't matter.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574559 - 08/24/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Children may be honest, but they are feral, selfish and viscious beasts until taught otherwise.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Swami]
    #4574563 - 08/24/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You spelled vicious incorrectly. Now I have lost faith in you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Swami]
    #4574590 - 08/24/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Children may be honest, but they are feral, selfish and viscious beasts until taught otherwise.




Some people think that and I say it's not so. In the early years, I raised my daughter in a way not to raise her in the ways of the world but in the ways of where she came from, to watch who she is and what she is made of unfold.

I will argue that compassion is our natural state.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Swami]
    #4574595 - 08/24/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Children may be honest, but they are feral, selfish and viscious beasts once they have been taught otherwise.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574598 - 08/24/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

if compassion is our natural state (and i agree) then lying can only be learned through personal history...and once it is removed...you can't lie.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Veritas]
    #4574600 - 08/24/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Hey get off his case. He should know, he was a kiddie and so has the evidence at hand.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: Icelander]
    #4574614 - 08/24/05 01:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Swami probably taught it how to be feral, selfish and a viscious beast.  :heart:

edit: to add smiley


Edited by MJF (08/24/05 01:42 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Personal History and Lies [Re: MJF]
    #4574615 - 08/24/05 01:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
if compassion is our natural state (and i agree) then lying can only be learned through personal history...and once it is removed...you can't lie.




Okay then. I think you have uncovered in this thread what castenada was getting at!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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