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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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What a strange view of the subconscious. My experience is very different. How did you come to this conclusion?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Icelander]
#4562066 - 08/21/05 09:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with LunarEclipse. Of course his way of putting it is dramatic. If we are not conditioned to acheiving success in a certain area it is possible that we will self abort our goals in favor of comfort. This is a subconcious decision. The subconcious tends towards the known and the comfortable. To transcend the limits of the subconcious determination or conditioning are needed.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Oh I get it. I think of subconscious and unconscious as different things.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Icelander]
#4562078 - 08/21/05 09:47 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well I'm not saying the subconscious is always a "bad guy" but let's face it, by definition he's a bit mysterious, maybe a bit dangerous, and it's not clear he's on the same page as your conscious.
He's like the CIA, you hope they are looking out for our interests, but how do you REALLY know? (Hence the mole analogy).
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: Why not a Major League baseball player? Why not the President?
Why not? Each role has requirements, and as long as their aren't any limitations that are beyond the control of the person (physical disabilities, citizenship issues, etc.) then a truly dedicated and conscious individual who is absolutely devoted to fufilling that role will be able to play the game and possibly attain it.
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Goals are only good if they are realistic. I know you are probably damn good on the guitar, for instance.

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The reason there are so many starving musicians is that there are so many musicians in the first place. Plus, the one's that "make it" in Hollywood etc. have PR men, agents, or are the brother-in-law of the record company president.
I have an understanding of the facets that are responsible and necessary for the path which I have outlined and have already begun following. I'm aware of the various realities of such a path and feel confident that I am able to succeed where many other individuals not capable enough have failed. 
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Did you like the way I discouraged you? Probably not.
I wasn't discouraged, but I did appreciate and liked the way that you expressed yourself. It is always important for me to realize the truths of my anticipated endeavors. Honestly, you probably motivated me more than anything else.
The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become (the present tense, "be", of course, is all that actually exists ) whatever. 
I'd continue with that general flow to satisfy jiggy's urges (;)), but yet I am pressed for time! 
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Seriously, though you should be the best guitar player you can, have fun with it, play gigs for free or for money, meet a lot of people.
Can't argue with that! 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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feel confident that I am able to succeed where many other individuals not capable enough have failed.
Being capable is fine, but being persistent is really what pays off. Watch the movie Wall Street and Bud Fox (played by Charlie Sheen) to get the idea. Well on second thought he ended up in jail for insider trading... OK the part about the birthday cigars, for instance. Or doing "whatever it takes" to get the job done. You may not like to be a self-promoting, ass kissing suck up. Most people don't. But, to get that record contract may require just such behavior, and on a persistent basis.
The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become
If you are not ALREADY the greatest rock star on earth in your mind and in time the world will agree, frankly you are unlikely to become the greatest rock star in the world by transforming or flowing into it. You would have already told anyone willing to listen about that fact from the age of 10 or whenever it was your guitar playing truly made a believer out of you. I find it interesting and a little more than a coincidence that the world's greatest (figure skater, boxer, Wimbledon champion, etc. etc.) made a conscious decision to be the best at an early age. They never wavered from that belief in spite of sounding a little silly saying "I will be the next heavyweight champion of the World" at age 12.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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LittleBen
Feed Me A StrayCat

Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 202
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Hah, well hope isnt all I put into it. But I really think just being aware of the danger reduces the risk dramatically. I would be more worried about security leaks if I hadnt been so suspicious. The place I notice it the most, funny enough, is video games. In H2 I beat everyone I know by the same margins even though they are at different skill levels. I must be holding back. (come see me on xbc)
-------------------- Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LittleBen]
#4566273 - 08/22/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: If you are not ALREADY the greatest rock star on earth in your mind and in time the world will agree, frankly you are unlikely to become the greatest rock star in the world by transforming or flowing into it.
I doubt this. Positive affirmations are useful when someone is transforming their motivations and their self towards a single-pointed goal, but it is not necessary for the transformation into a role. It isn't necessary to motivate oneself in such a manner to make it happen. One can accomplish that simply by undergoing the changes and the actions that are necessary, without delusional reassurance.
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I find it interesting and a little more than a coincidence that the world's greatest (figure skater, boxer, Wimbledon champion, etc. etc.) made a conscious decision to be the best at an early age. They never wavered from that belief in spite of sounding a little silly saying "I will be the next heavyweight champion of the World" at age 12.
Once again, a steadfast, unwavering desire to be the best of something certainly is going to be a powerful tool for actually being the "best", but it isn't the only tool to accomplish such by. I don't wake up every night and tell myself that "I am the fastest, most valued stocker at work" in order to actually be the fastest, most valued stocker; I simply perform in a manner that fufills that role, and, therefore, I naturally am (which has been revealed to me through several external sources, of course ).
Don't confuse the catalyst with the actual process that needs to be worked through in order for someone to attain the result of their path.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Contemplating this topic more as I have since it came up, I also realize that self sabotage has a constructive use and can serve us.
Like with anything, it's relative to the perspective.
Being an idealistic dreamer who loves to realize more of what i can do and make dreams become realities, i tend to put way to much on my plate. I want to do it all, have it all and be it all. I can tend to overwhelm myself and then, end up doing nothing.
Looking back, I have noticed that in some cases where I am sabotaging goals or desires, it seems to the subconscious selecting for me what to eliminate so I have more time and energy to focus on what would be best for me and get something done.
If I come up with 20 ideas and have only time and means to accomplish 2 of them, by my subconsciousness sabotaging 18 of them, i can get the 2 done.
If it didn't do that for me, I would have no focus with my efforts scattered and misplaced and accomplish less then I do with it , it seems.
From hindsight, I also noticed that it has been doing a good job of selecting what to sabotage and what to leave alone to fulfill itself.
I wanted to add this perspective because nothing is one sided and ultimately, I believe the negative side doesn't even exist other then to serve as an illusive back drop for the positive to be realized by the contrast.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Self Sabotage is just a mistake, a natural mistake. like growing pains it is not a pathology unless someone becomes delighted with the pain of it
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_ 🧠 _
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Who says it has to be painful? What if you pull a self sabotage and instead of feeling pain and regret or loss, you decide to view it as something that worked in your favor and it was not meant to be and that the space that was freed up to be used in better aligned with your higher purpose and intentions in life?
In other words, what if the ego sets a goal and intention and it runs contrary to the goal and intention of the higher self. Can you see where it's plausible that the higher self through the subconscious would sabotage the vain efforts and goals in guiding service to you?
We don't typically witness such a process and so can only think we fucked up. Maybe another aspect of our self is just running interference to help us achieve higher goals.
Take what Hue said about shifting from a comfort zone. When we naturally grow, we naturally shift zones and are not even aware of it. If a zone shift feels forced, then, an ego manipulation is possibly taking place and thats not natural.
I'm seeing this view of it tis morning and it's making sense to me.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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In Wiccan (and other) spellwork, it is common to include a line such as "This or something better" or "For the greatest good of my self and all those concerned." This is to express the belief that we may not always know what is best for us and others. Though our wish for something in particular to occur is made without malice, we simply do not have the perspective to understand the far-reaching effects.
Perhaps what appears to be self-sabotage could be a counter-action on the part of our "higher" self to avert potential consequences we cannot fully perceive?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Veritas]
#4566805 - 08/22/05 02:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you for understandng and elucidating so well the different view I wanted to share on this that I started seeing and considering.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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I don't wake up every night and tell myself that "I am the fastest, most valued stocker at work" in order to actually be the fastest, most valued stocker
Oh sure, you were Born To Stock. Meanwhile, I had to work 32 years to develop the speed and skills required to be a fast and valued stocker.
Sadly, at age 52 my peak stocking days are over, and my hump back is making reaching the top shelves more difficult. Worse, the Carpal Tunnel pain in both wrists is so bad that I am forced to wear braces not only at work but also at home and while sleeping. It's worth it though as just last year I was voted "Fastest and Most Valued Stocker" in the Masters Division.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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It was simply an example, and I don't know exactly where you are going with it. Are you saying that being successful at some role is going to destroy you? I'm not sure if you are saying that, or if you are simply belittling my specific example, which I had chosen as it pertains to me and a role in which I already have experience fufilling. What you describe sounds more like misuse of one's physical body over time, which doesn't have to be something involved in the specific example I stated. 
The point was more involving being aware of exactly what one is doing and applying oneself in such a manner to meet a requirement set by oneself or to fufill a role. The point was that simple, mental affirmations and convincing oneself that "one is the champion, the best" in itself doesn't amount to anything but delusion. It is simply one possible state of mind that can serve as a catalyst to the application of oneself and one's abilities to fufill a role. The point was made because you claimed that such a state of mind is necessary for such.
So do I need to absolutely convince myself that "I am the greatest rockstar ever" in order to actually assume such an imaginary image? Or can I simply devote myself, my energies, my awareness, and my focus into all endeavors that are necessary and that play a part in the goal that I have outlined for myself? Will I apply myself better in an aware state of mind that is centered in reality and will flow with what is faced, or in a state of mind wherein I am delusional and self-centered? You have already implied that fufilling such a role is possible, so are you just doubting my own ambition, or my understanding of all the implications and the necessities of such a role?
If I told you that I am going to be the best rock star ever, then would you believe me? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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If I told you that I am going to be the best rock star ever, then would you believe me?
If you haven't convinced yourself yet, what makes you think you can convince me? 
The point you keep disagreeing with that I see as the key point is that people with strong belief in themselves and with a specific yet very difficult goal often succeed.
In your case, I doubt you dreamed of being the fastest stocker as a kid. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle your efforts as any job worth doing is worth doing well. It pays the bills and gives you time to pursue your guitar etc. that's great. You are fast and they value you, perhaps you want to stay but can you see yourself stocking for the next 32 years? Probably not.
Part of self-sabotage by default is that most people never really pursue that which they love. The Path With Heart. They deny themselves the opportunity to do what they love because they don't have the self-confidence needed to follow that path. They know that if they try and fail on that path it will be doubly hard to take the failure. So, they pursue more practical (better paying and easier to get) type jobs and careers. The kind of job you hate but are good at. The kind that leads to stress, depression, and substance abuse evenings and weekends.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: If you haven't convinced yourself yet, what makes you think you can convince me? 
Oh, I'm fully convinced, I just don't let on much about me. 
Quote:
The point you keep disagreeing with that I see as the key point is that people with strong belief in themselves and with a specific yet very difficult goal often succeed.
I'm not disagreeing with this point at all. 
For instance, I hold a strong belief that I am capable enough and that I am also willing enough to take on any aspect of what is necessary for me to fufill whatever role I aim towards, and not only that, but that I also will act upon that.
The point that I was conflicting with is that of someone having to affirm "I am the greatest _ " and that it is the only way that one can succeed with difficult goals. Also, the thoughts concerning my statement "The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become..." - that whole general concept.
That quotation of mine was speaking of not holding any illusory sense of self and allowing it to conflict with one's goals or the ways in which one must change to meet them. It wasn't an expression of not believing in oneself and one's abilities, it was an expression of being completely open to changing oneself in manners that allow for one to follow through on their goals. For example, if I have insecurities about standing in front of a crowd, whose attention is focused solely on me, and that I must perform, I am going to not hold onto any aspect of myself that is responsible for those insecurities, and I am going to directly address it and open myself to changing to meet those needs.
Quote:
In your case, I doubt you dreamed of being the fastest stocker as a kid. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle your efforts as any job worth doing is worth doing well. It pays the bills and gives you time to pursue your guitar etc. that's great. You are fast and they value you, perhaps you want to stay but can you see yourself stocking for the next 32 years? Probably not.
Definitely not.
I would quit right now if I had means by which to support myself and my situation. A conclusion I long ago reached is that I cannot always arrange situations to meet my own preferences and addictions, and that the reality is that I am employed in such a manner, for the time being. I am under an agreement to meet certain expectations in exchange for currency. Therefore, while I am there, I am going to focus on exactly what I need to do, and that also I will take steps towards exceeding expectations and striving to better myself. Holding images of myself and what I like to do, what isn't preferential, etc., will only seperate myself from the experience and knowledge that anything can present. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.!
Quote:
Part of self-sabotage by default is that most people never really pursue that which they love. The Path With Heart. They deny themselves the opportunity to do what they love because they don't have the self-confidence needed to follow that path. They know that if they try and fail on that path it will be doubly hard to take the failure. So, they pursue more practical (better paying and easier to get) type jobs and careers. The kind of job you hate but are good at. The kind that leads to stress, depression, and substance abuse evenings and weekends.
I totally agree. Most people do not actively position themselves through life in order to transform themselves and reach what it is that they wish to reach. They aren't really actively seeking experience as they themselves are under-developed as human beings in one area or the other. By no means is my current occupation something that I will gradually slip into and stick with - I've already faced thoughts of settling in. The entire reason I did not follow a more conventional path through college and entering some field is because there was only one interest that I could honestly see myself concerning myself with throughout life. (although I have a great variety of interests and facets to concern myself with and to develop as well, from my relationship and my animals to written expression, foreign and artificial languages, script writing, psychology, gardening and mycology, shaping of physical surroundings, etc. etc. etc. etc. )...
My plans and goals have and continue to be well thought out and take various general and detailed, specific forms, in all areas. As much as I intend to focus on the present moment and to reap the most experience from it, I also focus on directing that continous experience. There are times when I start to drift more aimlessly, I will admit it, but yet there is still a central pulse that is driving me, and as time passes, I focus more and more within it all. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.! 
I'd like to thank you for posing the right comments and questions at the crucially right times, as you certainly have allowed me to think some thoughts that needed attention. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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I'd like to thank you for posing the right comments and questions at the crucially right times, as you certainly have allowed me to think some thoughts that needed attention.
Thanks for the thanks. You brought tears to my eyes! Great post and nice to hear more about you.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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