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Invisibledblaney
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Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism
    #4570785 - 08/23/05 02:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

...is such a thing possible...or is quietism inherently found in zen buddism and regular buddhism?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #4571061 - 08/23/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't totally associate "general" quiet states with zen states myself.

When in a zen mode, there is an interesting dynamic going on. At the same time, you are hyper aware of your surroundings yet focused on something.

I used to get into them when tending bar on a busy shift. Being able to go into that state helped me to become highly proficient.

Quiet tied into the mode in an odd way. It was experienced like in the movies when the sound is cut and the scene moves into slow motion.


Quiet in general can have zero focus going on as thoughts can scatter and wander and make one feel confused, restless or uneasy. That sort can drive people mad.

The zen sort of quiet brings about awesome inner order and clarity on rhyme and reason.

Just thought I'd throw my take on it out there as no one has replied yet. Maybe this will get some discussion rolling.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/23/05 03:53 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4571391 - 08/23/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting points indeed, but I meant quietism along the lines of total passivity...

For example, from my understanding of it, Buddhism states that everything is as it should be and to take definitive actions that aren't part of your dharma would be karmic actions (which are a big no-no). So what about the case of a Hitler?

If there was someone who was slaughtering millions of people for whatever reason...would a Buddhist simply accept the genocides or would he do something about it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #4571511 - 08/23/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ahhhhhhh. There are two schools of thought us this and I'll turn up the heat here.

One is that Buddhism is a part of a false ascension agenda to keep humanity locked in pain and suffering. Where that school of thought fits in is that if we adopt these ideas that tell us "All is well just as it is" while people are being tortured and killed, lie suffering in disease poverty and starvation" we will be able to be at peace within it. The idea that says this is false says we are one and that is being in a state of separation from the "one" selfish. All the while, it's left to continue with no one who can do something about it doing something about it.

If fire ants are attacking your own foot, do you smile and say "all is well as it is, in perfect divine order, or do you brush the little stinging fuckers off ASAP?" ANYONE would brush them off. Why? Because they don't want to be in pain if they don't have to be.

So why is it okay for you to help your separate self out of pain, but not your larger united self out of pain? How is that in accordance with ACTUAL oneness, not pretend oneness?

Some would argue that you are a micro of the macro and if you are well the whole is well. Sure, my whole separate from the larger whole is well, but I can look out and clearly see that the larger whole isn't. Do you guys have any idea whats happening in Zimbabwe right now?

All is well? Tell that to all of the people suffering today. I will say that putting yourself in suffering does no one any good. You have to get yourself well and keep that way to be able to help others.

I will duck now as the mortar is sure to come flying at me however, I felt like it should be said.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/23/05 06:25 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4571786 - 08/23/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

For me, along the lines of negative utilitarianism, human suffering is the ultimate wrong. I will never idly accept the idea that suffering is something which cannot be conquered.
Unfortunately, without a change in the human nervous system suffering will always be around to some extent. But, I applaud and support any effort to minimize it. (Unless it is a temporary fix which will cause greater suffering later on. ex: heroin)


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4571813 - 08/23/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I want to argue that ones dharma could be to stop one like hitler. Why not? Am I missing something?

It doesn't make sense to confuse being withdrawn and indifferent to the world, and being accepting of it. You love the world, and work to change it, but aren't attached to having it the way you want, and accept things when you do your best. If you are working to kick john walters in his nuts as an expression of your love for the world, then kicking him in the nuts is your dharma path. But, if it turns out you kick Karen Tandy in her vagina instead, you accept that you did your best and move on in a detached yet involved way.

The idea of not fighting things means not fighting expression of the love that comes up in the world, doesn't it?


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4571976 - 08/23/05 08:28 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm totally in sync with you there mush!

Tomk,

I would argue that too and I would add to include the easing of Hitlers suffering as well. Obviously, that guy was suffering from something. Like it or not, he is a part of the one as well and got stuck somewhere in the muck. There is good and the Divine in the core of everyone.

I also agree with your idea of not fighting. That was beautiful. You see so many people put up resistance to accepting love and allowing love in. I don't get it. If everyone did that, there would be nothing bad left to really fight against. We'd all be giving and recieving in love and life would be SWEET!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: tomk]
    #4571987 - 08/23/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yep. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574120 - 08/24/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
If fire ants are attacking your own foot, do you smile and say "all is well as it is, in perfect divine order, or do you brush the little stinging fuckers off ASAP?" ANYONE would brush them off. Why? Because they don't want to be in pain if they don't have to be.




That reminds me of this.

Enjoy! :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: dblaney]
    #4574240 - 08/24/05 11:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney18 said:
Interesting points indeed, but I meant quietism along the lines of total passivity...

For example, from my understanding of it, Buddhism states that everything is as it should be and to take definitive actions that aren't part of your dharma would be karmic actions (which are a big no-no). So what about the case of a Hitler?

If there was someone who was slaughtering millions of people for whatever reason...would a Buddhist simply accept the genocides or would he do something about it?




buddhists do not condone murder.
neither does any other recognized group of spiritual people.

what way is there to predict how any person would behave when confronted by a murderer or group of murderers.

my approach is
save self (unless it is impossible - save as many others as possible).
render murderer ineffective by most humane method available.

sometimes it is impossible or not obvious how to do anything significant immediately.

most buddhists do not need to add drama to be effective.


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OfflineTwelve_Nomads
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4574754 - 08/24/05 02:28 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

From my understanding of Buddhism, the fire ant analogy doesn't quite hit the mark. I'm sure a Buddhist would remove the ants as well, but that is because he/she is bound to a physical body that has its own needs and desires. The philosophy is separate from that kind of analogy I think because the main purpose of Buddhism is to get to "True Mind".

The True Mind transcends all ethical and moral judgments, so in truth, Hitler would not be a problem. Nothing would be. That only sounds weird to us because it's hard for us to eject ourselves completely from a moral "right/wrong" (dualistic) worldview.

I've always felt this kind of philosophy "sounds good on paper" but still have real trouble trying to live it. I think though, if all things are truly one -which, at least, at the subatomic level it seems they ARE - then us watching the horrors of the world is no different than us watching the waves of the sea crash against the beach or each other. We don't look at the water and side with a particular wave. I don't "agree" with the wave on the right, and totally detest that wave way back in the back. We don't wish one wave could go on forever, or get frustrated that one wave knocked out another -we just see ocean.

So with us, every dictator, every saint, everyone and everything is nothing but different waves. It's still all ocean. And me saying "the killing of life is wrong and should be stopped" is me dividing the ocean into good waves and bad waves.

It's so natural to live in the dualism, which is why i think "True Mind" is so hard to reach -God knows I've never gotten close! But I've studied Buddhism for awhile and have always been fascinated by it. To my understanding, all things, no matter what they are, are.... well, just ARE. There's no good, no bad. Just "is".


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: Twelve_Nomads]
    #4574765 - 08/24/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

To my understanding, all things, no matter what they are, are.... well, just ARE. There's no good, no bad. Just "is".




This is the core of many philosophies.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: Twelve_Nomads]
    #4574784 - 08/24/05 02:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So, you aspire to get to an enlightened state where you would sit there and watch your child be raped , tortured and murdered and do nothing to stop it?

If that is what Buddhism is teaching people then, I'm glad I walked away from it when I did.

Compassion is not about duality judgments. It's about fellow feeling. If you would brush the fire ants off from yourself because being stung doesn't feel good, then compassion would have you do the same for another if you see them covered and being stung.

Sure, people entertain lofty ideas of not being phased by fire ant stings. They idolize the monk who can sit in a pile being stung and not flinch.

Good for him. He can by pass the Novocaine at the dentists office on his next visit.

He also just desensitized himself to feeling and his ability to feel for others. His ability to feel for others (compassion) just flew out the window. He has become a useless member to the service of society.

Someone here posted about some Buddhist monk who set himself on fire and burned alive without flinching.

Now the dudes dead! Really bright. He is now useless in his ability to serve others.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/24/05 02:52 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4574832 - 08/24/05 02:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well said.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4574906 - 08/24/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks.

I want to add that I do not discount the aspiring to achieve transcendence from duality perception.

That is key if you are going to be able to show and act from compassion to a victim and its oppressor equally, to be of assistance to both in their relief from suffering.

Something happens when you transcend duality. For a while, you don't care about anything horrible because there is no bad.

Then, you start moving into seeing things as complimentary contrasts and start realizing that we don't need to label and judge things as good and or bad. We can, from experiences, make preferential choices.

It is preferable to not suffer, not bad to suffer.

There is a difference.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4574914 - 08/24/05 03:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

jiggy, some say that in the ultimate transcendence of conceptual though and suffering the only guiding principle for action is love and compassion. Without ideas or beliefs governing our experience and behavior our basis for doing things is something beyond thought, love.

If you were truly enlightened or at one with the Tao or whatever your nature as a living being would be of compassion. Other beings would appear like a healthy person having a nightmare, suffering, but not understanding that everything is really ok. A Buddha or Bhodisattva would be motivated to free others from this illusion of suffering, knowing that it is totally false.

You should read a book by a guy name Khrishnamurti called "The First and Last Freedom" It kind of incorporates Zen-like ideas with compassion for others and love. Very interesting.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Reconciling Buddhism (or Zen) and Quietism [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4574969 - 08/24/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A Buddha or Bhodisattva would be motivated to free others from this illusion of suffering, knowing that it is totally false.

Thank you for sharing that for the poster. Note the word motivation.

The poster was questioning some idea of quietism, that teach inactive passivity.

The dudes you described are in active service. Thats what I am talking about.

Some one who does not assist others with the false reality and lets them sink in it is not someone in service to the one. They are useless contributors to the cause.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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true story [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4575041 - 08/24/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

a monk was in a charity hut meditating in the rear yard of a merchant's house.

the merchant's daughter found the monk attractive and made overtures which the monk ignored.

the daughter killed herself in sorrow.

the abbot, who was the monk's teacher, expelled the monk for placing his vows above the needs of others.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: true story [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4575045 - 08/24/05 03:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe she wasn't his type.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: true story [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4575061 - 08/24/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a monk was in a charity hut meditating in the rear yard of a merchant's house.

the merchant's daughter found the monk attractive and made overtures which the monk ignored.

the daughter killed herself in sorrow.

the abbot, who was the monk's teacher, expelled the monk for placing his vows above the needs of others.




Beautiful. Thats not to say he had to marry her, but had he had the compassion to acknowledge her feelings and show her his kindness and companionship, he would of been in useful service to another of the One.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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