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 lightemup
Got a Wick
Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 19
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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 Do U Believe In Jesus? 
#4566531 - 08/22/05 01:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yesterday while in a Public setting a stranger approached me and asked, "Do You Believe In Jesus?" Wanting to remain neutral on the subject, I explained I believe in a Higher Power....
Needless to say, the above person tried to push the subject to a higher level of discussion... However a reversal of the situation paid off, as this person wagged his tail between his legs.
My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?
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 it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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 Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4566540 - 08/22/05 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Usually if someone is overly anxious to press their beliefs on other people, they lack confidence in these beliefs.
As for Jesus, I believe that he was an actual person, but nothing beyond that.
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peeper
Even stranger
 
Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 1,424
Loc: Tennessee
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Jesus may have lived at one point but he has nothing to do with today.
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Sycronica
Seeker
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: peeper]
#4566697 - 08/22/05 02:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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My opinion jesus was a person with huge charisma and he knew how to use it. He inspired people to follow him and he challenged a fucked up system. His deeds carried such sway with the common people that ultimatly the system had to be changed to include him or risk failing altogether. But rome being as old as it was couldn't handle the change and collapsed anyway.
But the higher ups in society latched onto the jesus story and it slowly morphed into what we have today. There was no hell or satan, nor was jesus the son of god; these were all added many, many years after his death. Timelines have been created out of the blue and a whole world creation story made up all to fit the deeds of one man.
Were jesus here today he would be challenging our system just like he did rome. Our modern day system is a roman emporer's wet dream. Interesting to draw comparisions to modern day money changers and temples. Stock market and pentagon? Who knows. He wouldn't be waving our flag that's for sure.
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Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
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lightemup
Got a Wick
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Sycronica]
#4566731 - 08/22/05 02:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Real Question...??? Is it right for strangers to ask a common stranger, a question and then argue the fact, especially when They will be leaving you from that question in a matter of minutes never seeing you again.......??? Its an easy way out...... and a a fast conversation
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4566879 - 08/22/05 03:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.
A few minutes ago my Lady's step-mother (who recently spent 2 weeks with us) phoned from one of her homes (Germany). I answered the phone and she told me that she'd ordered me a book on line when she was here. I passed the phone to my Lady and went outside to get the mail. Lo and behold! The book was there. Interesting coincidence. It is one of those 600+ page personal accounts of some modern day [female] 'mystic' who has long 'visionary' adventures with Jesus and His people. Flipping through it, I saw that a certain 'James' was called the 'cousin' of Jesus, which is a Catholic lie - refuting that Mary, mother of Jesus ever had any other children ("ever virgin"), when the Good Book says otherwise.
OK, synchronistic event constellated around Christian theme, but I find this kind of female Jesus fantasy stuff abhorrent. I don't even want this book on the same shelf with my Christian theological and historical texts, and I'm divided in my regard with this woman because she is one of those fundamentalist types who had the nerve to ask me if I completely accepted Jesus - you see, there is a good deal of art in our home that is Buddhist, Hindu, Egyptian, Pagan and Jewish in addition to Christian things. I am a grown man with degrees in philosophy and theology, but I don't pontificate in my home or walk around with a robe and morter-board on my head, yet this woman doubts that I 'believe' in Jesus because I do not believe as she does, which is to say a belief in the Christian myths, literally, without philosophical, theological or psychological considerations.
So, yes, I believe in Jesus, but in so saying, I mean simply that He is my model for Human Development, the Way of Freedom and thus my spiritual Master.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.
That's pretty similar to my current view. I see him as an ordinary man who attained Christ Consciousness.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Silversoul]
#4566999 - 08/22/05 03:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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[to markos]
If you see the logos clothed in flesh, your eyes have been clothed in logos...
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Silversoul]
#4567641 - 08/22/05 06:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ordinary perhaps, but He didn't earn, achieve or attain His status - He was graced with it.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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How do you know this?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psychomime
o_O
Registered: 05/16/05
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4567822 - 08/22/05 07:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How do you know this?
like most other religious thought, it is known through intense navel gazing and good imagination. It is then transferred by proclaiming it as if it is the unquestionable truth.
Christ was a model to follow, not an idol to be worshipped.
see, it is quite easy to do.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4568171 - 08/22/05 08:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I suppose one could say that I know by faith, which means that I can't 'prove' anything - not that I want to - but it is the assumption that I make based on all that I've thought/felt/intuited on the matter. It is also coherent with the internal consistency of the writings (Bible, Nag Hammadi library) and I have carefully filtered out any Indian philosophical considerations (like a Paramanhansa Yogananda interpretation). Anyway, my 'faith' is like 'a razor's edge' along which I tread. When I decide in favor of some doctrine over another, the faith ceases to be a living reality which suspends my intellectual acceptance of a doctrine. Only the contemplative process seems to convey the Truth, not any arrival at a neat formula, doctrine or dogma.
I hope this makes some kind of sense, but if any 'assurance' occurs, it is not through dead formlae but through transcendental contemplation.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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FreedomFight
Strange
Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 427
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I believe that Jesus was a great philosopher and he revolutionized the way many people view their connection with God. Unfortunately, none of us will ever know who Jesus really was; instead we must settle for the gospels and myths left behind by religious fanatics.
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I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.
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LeftyBurnz
Mr. I Eat Butthole
Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 24,570
Loc: FL
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i believe there was a man named jesus christ that may have done some awesome things but i dont believe he was the son of god.
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Frog
Warrior
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4569204 - 08/23/05 12:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
lightemup said:
Yesterday while in a Public setting a stranger approached me and asked, "Do You Believe In Jesus?" Wanting to remain neutral on the subject, I explained I believe in a Higher Power....
Needless to say, the above person tried to push the subject to a higher level of discussion... However a reversal of the situation paid off, as this person wagged his tail between his legs.
My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?
I have no problem with someone evangelizing their beliefs. But they'd better back off when I say, "Back off."
I believe in God, Jesus, etc. I don't need anyone pushing their perception of the whole thing at me. I usually just say, "Hey, I believe. Now leave me alone."
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4569480 - 08/23/05 04:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them.
I suspect that most people that try to "push" their religion on others are insecure in their own beliefs. If they can convince somebody else to believe as they do, then they can use that other persons belief as a crutch to help support their own faith.
I have experienced one person that tried to "bring people to Jesus" that I felt was doing it out of love, as opposed to self-gratification. He was a preacher at one of the churches around the college I attended. I used to eat lunch in one of the local bars, and he was always in there at the same time... never drinking, just sitting and chatting with people. One day I asked him why he was always in there, and he said something like "where better to meet people without faith". He never tried to "push" his faith on others, rather he simply made himself available to talk... and would turn the conversations towards his beliefs. When word got back to the church that their preacher was speaking with the sinners in a bar, they quickly replaced him with somebody "more in line with the teachings of Jesus."
Quote:
Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.
Markos, thank you. 
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Just another spore in the wind.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: LeftyBurnz]
#4569525 - 08/23/05 05:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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'Son of God' was a title applied to any king in the Old Testament who was made king by the 'divine right of kingship.' A king was 'crowned' with a symbol of Enlightenment. Gold crowns suggesting rays of light, with large inset jewels at the third eye indicated wisdom. Multitudes of Gentile Christians for centuries who are unconscious of the Old Testament nature of Jesus and titles and references all have believed that Son of God was a title unique to Jesus. What is unique is the Johannine idea that Jesus Christ was 'God clothed with flesh,' the 'prolation of the second hypostatic person of the Trinity,' in later theology (Tertullian).
Jesus was facetiously titled King of the Jews by Pontius Pilate which pissed off the orthodox Jews of His time, but in fact Jesus was said to speak of the Kingdom of God (or the Kingdom of Heaven, because author Matthew didn't like writing a Name for 'God,' being extremely Jewish himself), but was referring to a 'dimension' or a 'state of being,' not a worldly theocratic government as the orthodox expected.
So, the apocalyptic title of Son of God may apply whereas incarnated God, or a God-man ('fully God, fully man') may not be anything more than Greek mythic language - a 'hero' born from a divine father and a mortal woman.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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.Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I suppose one could say that I know by faith, which means that I can't 'prove' anything - not that I want to - but it is the assumption that I make based on all that I've thought/felt/intuited on the matter. It is also coherent with the internal consistency of the writings (Bible, Nag Hammadi library) and I have carefully filtered out any Indian philosophical considerations (like a Paramanhansa Yogananda interpretation). Anyway, my 'faith' is like 'a razor's edge' along which I tread. When I decide in favor of some doctrine over another, the faith ceases to be a living reality which suspends my intellectual acceptance of a doctrine. Only the contemplative process seems to convey the Truth, not any arrival at a neat formula, doctrine or dogma.
I hope this makes some kind of sense, but if any 'assurance' occurs, it is not through dead formlae but through transcendental contemplation.
Let me ask you this Markos, could it be this way for you and the another way for another? Could both be truth and valid. Could Jesus have attained his trancendence through grace, and for someone else could he have trancendence through his inner and outer struggle? Could you entertain that idea that you might not know? Or are you sure of the things you believe?
The reason I ask is, you make statements as if they were a absolute fact because you believe it. Is there any wiggle room?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4571420 - 08/23/05 03:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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in a fascinating series of books, dead sea scrolls scholar dr hugh shonfield (_the passover plot_, _the jesus party_, et seq.) suggests that this yeshua ben yosef consciously attempted to fulfill the jewish prophesies (as he interpreted them - close to the thought of the pharisees, & perhaps the essenes... but a bit farther from the zealots & the saducees, eh?) concerning the long-awaited "annointed one" to redeem israel & "immanentize the eschaton" (apollylollygies to shea & wilson  ...) & establish the kingdom of righteousness...
well worth the read, imho...
(if only for another vantage-point on this pivotal figure in the course of westciv/worldciv... & the history of the past 2 millenia, eh?)
(i was raised lutheran & i'm still trying to figure out "who is this man?")(my own life-long koan, so it might seem... )
shalom
salaam
peace be with you
namaste
blessed be
shanti
om
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4571656 - 08/23/05 04:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, I am coming from MY beliefs, I am not stating that "I AM the Truth." Y'shua ben Miriam, a 1st century Jew whose geneology is reflective of his mother Miriam (not the probably fictional Yosef [Joseph]), would have been horrified to discover that future generations were saying things like 'Jesus is GOD,' or 'Jesus created the world.' He allegedly said something like 'Why call thou me good, only GOD is good.' (KJV). In Aramaic, his mother would've called him 'Issa,' and in Hebrew, Y'shua (Joshua in English). Even in Greek which has no letter 'J' He would've been called Iesus [Ee-soos] not Jesus [Gee-zus].
Beginning with the simplest possible facts such as His Name, moderns don't even know these simple things. What was it to be a 1st century Jewish man about 30 years old who worked with his hands in a country occupied by enemy soldiers? That He had a uniquely potent connection to GOD is unquestionable, but the Hellenistic mythological overlays and the later Hellenistic philosophical concepts that were applied to His psychospiritual nature are clearly just that - AS IF He didn't know what was up and only later Greek philosophy-influenced theologians had to tell the world what his nature was. Tertullian coined the term Trinity, but trinitarian deity was recognized in Egypt as Osirus-Horus-Isis, not original. Y'shua's Judaism was in this:
"Shema Y'israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echod" - 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.' NOT Three. Such things appeared centuries later in Kabbalism, but NOT with Y'shua.
So, simply knowing a little bit about 1st century Judean Jews, one can extrapolate many things. Y'shua MUST have been circumcized into the Covenant of Abraham on the 8th day after His birth - but the Bible or other writings don't mention it. He MUST have been Bar Mitzvah, if He was going to fulfill (even self-fulfill) any OT prophesies, but it's not in the Bible (His trip to Jerusalem with the family was not His Bar Mitzvah). He may have been married because unmarried men were not allowed to speak openly in the Temple, since they were not considered to be whole men until the sexual dimension was functioning in marriage. The Bible says that Y'shua DID speak openly in the Temple, so was He married? Could the Magdalene been His wife? Early Catholics wanted to portray Him as elevated about such things because of their very un-Jewish negation of sexuality. The mother of Y'shua was supposed to be 'ever-virgin' and have had no other children according to Rome - NOT according to the Bible as written under the auspices of Constantine's henchmen.
When doing hermeneutics - the interpretation of scriptures - one has to work from within the framework of the period in which the recorded phenomenon occurred. The NT was written anywhere from 40-120 years after Y'shua 'died.' No, He didn't travel to Tibet or India; no, Buddhist monks didn't teach Him how to be a JuBu (Jewish Buddhist). He wasn't as Essene from any evidence, though He must have known about them. He didn't take psychedelics - no mushrooms, ergot-laden shewbread, Syrian Rue, cannabis, calamus, or nepenthe. I believe that He was special, unique, life-changing to a degree unparalleled in humankind. Simply by familiarizing oneself with descriptions of His personality from a common Bible one can get an idea, a gestalt of the nature of this man. My own life has been changed radically from recognizing the superiority of His humanity and centering that nature in my heart-of-hearts. What more can I say? The Miraculous is in my own interior.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Vulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
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jesus was just one of the perfect masters such as Buddha, Zoaroaster (sp?) , Muhammed, Meher Baba, ect.
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Work like you dont need the money.
Love like you never been hurt.
Dance like nobody is watching.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 thanks for the great answer. I think I get where you are comming from.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Benwa
Stranger
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4571967 - 08/23/05 06:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Another, maybe even more important question- Does it matter?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Benwa]
#4571981 - 08/23/05 06:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course it does/doesn't. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Vulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 3,546
Loc: SC
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
#4572254 - 08/23/05 07:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Of course it does/doesn't.
good one 
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Work like you dont need the money.
Love like you never been hurt.
Dance like nobody is watching.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Vulture]
#4572351 - 08/23/05 07:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course, feel free to be a Theosophist, but you're not defining Christ from within the early Christian tradition, but from an essentially Hinduistic, avataric perspective. There is no such thing as "perfect masters" within any tradition of Christianity. The closest ancient parallel was Manichaeanism in which Mani included Buddha with Jesus and Zoroaster (Zarathustra) as 'masters.'
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Vulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
Registered: 06/18/02
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Loc: SC
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i wasent going for defining him in any certain way.
i dont like label when it comes to religion. its all the same...all religions are one in my mind.
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Work like you dont need the money.
Love like you never been hurt.
Dance like nobody is watching.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Vulture]
#4572646 - 08/23/05 08:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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 They're only "one" at the peak of the 'many-sided religious mountain,' so you have to know the outer differences as well as the inner identity in order to communicate with different people.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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I believe he existed. I don't believe in the perverse religion which followed in his name, however.
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aig
Stranger
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: bukkake]
#4609632 - 09/01/05 06:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i will find my salvation through myself. I believe only i can save myself.
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The things you own end up owning you.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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 Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4610248 - 09/01/05 08:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Only eyes that become like the sun can look into the sun."
-Plotinus
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: aig]
#4610274 - 09/01/05 08:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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...as one can lift oneself up by one's own bootstraps?
You, qua You are NOT the Transcendental Source. Saying so is just delusion and complete pretension.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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psychomime
o_O
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Markos, ever considered that man creates God in his own image? could you point out one god in history that does not display human personality or motivations?
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Posts: 7,991
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4610415 - 09/01/05 09:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If anyone's ever seen the Family Guy movie, I believe Jesus as depicted is more in line with the true Jesus.
If he exisetd. I don't have faith in the matter; for all I know he could be an elaborate construct of those power-hungry individuals, and all the Christians would be none the wiser because most could care less about evidence; many rely on pure faith for their beliefs, like a man trying to live on air alone. Of course, I also don't care if they do have faith, as long as it doesn't affect me; the only annoying part is when they claim it as an absolute truth and tell others who don't follow it that they're wrong, despite lacking any evidence to support their "absolute truths".
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: psychomime]
#4610629 - 09/01/05 10:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm personally not interested in the anthropomorphizations that we make of GOD. We are 'souls' that have personalities, and the Designer behind all of creation is at least personal, but not in any manner human (which would be comprehensible). I suspect that what is commonly referred to as 'GOD's Will' is far more profound metaphysically than most people realize. I grok that the only 'invariant feature' of consciousnesss according to Phenomenology is 'intentionality' or 'will.' Given the Hermetic teaching of 'As Above, So Below,' the Microcosm that human 'souls' are somehow reflect the Macrocosmic Deity - like solar systems and atoms, so-to-speak.
I am personally interested in GOD, who is at least personal, but Transpersonal and Transcendental, and I am also capable of being transpersonally aware of GOD and transcendentally aware of GOD depending upon which 'world' one is talking about. We are, according to Kabbalah, capable of existing in four worlds simultaneously. I exist consciously and unconsciously in three of those worlds: the simply physical, the personality and the soul. This model now presents the path of 'Knowledge' [Gnosis] by which the 'Abyss' to the spiritual world of the Supernals is to be entered into. From my current stage of development, that potential looks like a 'future' development, even though I believe it to be a present possibility. Meanwhile, I have attemped to dwell in Tiphereth (http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html) as much as is given to me, and to incorporate the first two worlds to create the Wholeness necessary for the final ascent.
This may surpass you simply question, but what I equate the word GOD with is Ultimate Reality, and THAT Reality is a Living Reality, not merely a mechanical, physical one. The universe of space-time and celestial phenomena is real, but is not Ultimate Reality - not GOD - and I want to Know GOD.
Peace.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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krishnamurti
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 382
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someone please tell me the importance of knowing if a certain person was alive 2000 years ago. i got better shit to worry about now thx. maybe he had some valid things to say back in his day, but its nothing i cant figure out on my own now.
as for 'god', or the thoughts that come to each of our heads when we see/hear that word, it really should only be important what you think about it. so why keep entertaining ourselves on what it is with that small hope of a conclusion when there will never be one.
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I'll see you down in Guantanamo Bay
Donate spores to FSRC or suffer the consequences!*
Wikipedia
Overgrow has been shut down  check out www.icmag.com if you need MJ info
*consequences may or may not be suffered
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
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Someone tell you, or is it me you're asking?
I am gnostic - a 'knower.' I aim for Knower-Knowledge-Known to be One.
You apparently are an agnostic - one who 'does not know.'
If you are referring to Jesus, and have not discerned His importance, I assure you that you will not "figure out" what you need or you would have figured out His importance by now.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Unagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
Loc: The Trenches of France
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I'm personally not interested in the anthropomorphizations that we make of GOD. We are 'souls' that have personalities, and the Designer behind all of creation is at least personal, but not in any manner human (which would be comprehensible). I suspect that what is commonly referred to as 'GOD's Will' is far more profound metaphysically than most people realize. I grok that the only 'invariant feature' of consciousnesss according to Phenomenology is 'intentionality' or 'will.' Given the Hermetic teaching of 'As Above, So Below,' the Microcosm that human 'souls' are somehow reflect the Macrocosmic Deity - like solar systems and atoms, so-to-speak.
I am personally interested in GOD, who is at least personal, but Transpersonal and Transcendental, and I am also capable of being transpersonally aware of GOD and transcendentally aware of GOD depending upon which 'world' one is talking about. We are, according to Kabbalah, capable of existing in four worlds simultaneously. I exist consciously and unconsciously in three of those worlds: the simply physical, the personality and the soul. This model now presents the path of 'Knowledge' [Gnosis] by which the 'Abyss' to the spiritual world of the Supernals is to be entered into. From my current stage of development, that potential looks like a 'future' development, even though I believe it to be a present possibility. Meanwhile, I have attemped to dwell in Tiphereth (http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html) as much as is given to me, and to incorporate the first two worlds to create the Wholeness necessary for the final ascent.
This may surpass you simply question, but what I equate the word GOD with is Ultimate Reality, and THAT Reality is a Living Reality, not merely a mechanical, physical one. The universe of space-time and celestial phenomena is real, but is not Ultimate Reality - not GOD - and I want to Know GOD.
Peace.
Very well said
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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4611769 - 09/02/05 08:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I consider the story of Jesus to be a metaphorical "handbook" meant for those who have become trapped in the ego during the development thereof. It shows how to live in a way that will lead you to a peaceful state of mind.
The catch is, the main characters are parts of your psyche.
To me, Jesus represents the conscious thinker... the part of ourselves that we identify with consciously. The "I" in "I think..."
In order to reach a peaceful state of mind, one must surrender that ego... they must let go of their tendency to identify with the thinking mind. By letting go of this attachment to the thinking mind, one is able to "be" without thought.
This is the crucifixion of Jesus... this is how Jesus' (or the ego's) "sacrifice" can save us... the catch is, the saving is from our own anxious over-thinking brains.
--
This is just my opinion, and it definitely skews to fit my experiences in life... no denying that.
BUT, I still think it's important to recognize that this is a view that allows logical explanation of the one question that seems to bug everyone who questions the logical consistency of Christianity:
"How can some guy getting nailed to a cross 2000 years ago save me from my sins?"
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4611905 - 09/02/05 10:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them...
Because they're beliefs. People with strong beliefs don't think of them as something that they just believe in, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion. They BELIEVE. They believe they're absolutely right.
If you admit that other people are equally entitled to their beliefs, you don't truly believe. Because that's admitting that your beliefs might be wrong.
If you truly believe that without faith in Jesus you will burn forever in hellfire eternal... well, you'd be a dick not to try and convert anyone you see. What kind of person lets others suffer infinite torture?
This is the essential fallacy of religious tolerance. To tolerate another religion is to demean your religion.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Posts: 4,587
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Phluck]
#4612087 - 09/02/05 11:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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People who think they know WHATS REALLY GOING ON are usually full of shit.
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krishnamurti
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 382
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Someone tell you, or is it me you're asking?
I am gnostic - a 'knower.' I aim for Knower-Knowledge-Known to be One.
You apparently are an agnostic - one who 'does not know.'
If you are referring to Jesus, and have not discerned His importance, I assure you that you will not "figure out" what you need or you would have figured out His importance by now.
was for all those questioning their belief in Jesus.
agnostic: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.
i will deny that there is a 'heaven', but what 'god' is i will try to learn on my own when it becomes a point of interest for me.
as for striving for Knower-Knowledge-Known being one, good luck, but beliefs and trying to emulate someone else will not take you anywhere. those damn labels suck too.
and ill never know about His-with-a-capital-H importance because i dont give a shit. nothing is important about him unless i make it important.
hopefully my tone of anger will not prevent further argument
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I'll see you down in Guantanamo Bay
Donate spores to FSRC or suffer the consequences!*
Wikipedia
Overgrow has been shut down check out www.icmag.com if you need MJ info
*consequences may or may not be suffered
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MarkostheGnostic
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 Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Unagipie]
#4612799 - 09/02/05 02:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Very well said"
Thank you.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
People who think they know WHATS REALLY GOING ON are usually full of shit.
That's where faith comes in. Faith is simply a highly decorated quilt to cover up the dogshit people would otherwise quickly notice.
Ask for evidence, and the facade blows off. But of course, theology is not science; both the quilt and dogshit are essential parts of most spiritual doctrines, and the superficial cover gives many people hope, even if it is simply in the mind.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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MarkostheGnostic
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With a rigidly defended ego like that, you'll never get it. Truth is objective, your opinion (or mine for that matter) is what's unimportant. I wish to embody Truth as symbolized by Christ. Apparently you do not.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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The 'Vicarious Sacrifice' theology of Paul is the mainstay of Christianity, yet 'the preaching of Christ crucified' never was transforming for me either. The Hebrew Pascal lamb which was a creature without blemish was selected to be a blood sacrifice for the remission of sin. Y'shua was to be the final 'lamb of GOD who takes away the sins of the world,' but the whole sacrificial animal thing seems to be a primitive and cruel practice anyway which I never really got except as a left-over from very early times. I prefer the Fully-Realized Eschatology of The Gospel of Thomas to the partially-realized eschatology of Paul, in which Christ is only partially present but expected to 'return in glory' at a 'future' point in time. It seems like Paul was expecting the return of the man Y'shua (howsoever transfigured) rather than a change in Mankind's ability to be aware of GOD (as in Thomas).
The symbolism of Christ dying, rending the veil which separated the Holy-of-Holies in the Temple symbolized a permanent passageway between Man and GOD. In the Old Covenant Temple worship, only the High Priest could enter the inner sanctum of the Temple. Now, with the veil rent, all people could enter into Holy Space, only the Temple was to be conceived of as one's own body, and the Heart as the Holy-of-Holies. The New Covenant therefore represented a more inner-directed worship. Sacrifice was not of a poor creature, but of oneself, or at least of one's selfish nature, thereby allowing the "inner man" to become the Center of one's life - the 'indwelling Christ' that Y'shua epitomized and became identified as being. However, while Y'shua had a 'GOD-mysticism,' Paul in turn spoke of a 'Christ-mysticism,' never of a GOD-mysticism. That degree of cosmic 'familiarity' was assigned to Y'shua alone in a 'Son-Father' idiom.
If Christians were to develop an inner life after Y'shua's Way, it would be different from Christ-mysticism which eventually became identified with the Sacramental Eucharist meted out by the controlling priesthood, just like the Hebrew priests had monopolized the Holy-of-Holies, only now, the Gentiles were in charge and the ritual changed.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Tien
人民英雄
Registered: 03/30/05
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Loc: Canoodia 
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I don't know if Jesus had ever existed..he might have, or maybe not. They never found the body..so
For all we know people around the time Jesus was born were asking the exact same question..do you beleive in Jesus? Maybe Jesus was always just a legend..just a foundation for the church..
Pluto
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
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...indeed! I think what you said coincides with my thoughts pretty well.
The way your posts are written makes me feel like I need to get back in school or stop abusing the reefer... or both...
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Bamaman
...has issues.
Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 657
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.
With a degree in theology then you certainly are familiar with the subject of Christology, yes? Anyone with a fair knowledge of the Old and New Testaments who has studied the subject regarding the divinity of Christ can hold only one conclusion. Christ was God.
He created the world(s), walked with Adam in the garden, spoke to Moses on the mount, appeared as a burning bush, talked with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, and ultimately joined His own creation as a man(Jesus) to grant us salvation.
Even if you are not a Christian, one who has studied this subject must come to the conclusion that this is what the OT & NT teaches.
There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son. Always has been. No man hath seen the Father.
Exo. 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Gen. 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, AS THOUGH I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Even in the OT, Isaiah recognized that the creator, the husband, the God of Israel, and the redeemer as being one and the same entity.
Isa. 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
The NT makes it clear that the creator, the husband, the Lord of hosts, and the redeemer is Christ.
The OT prophets had always spoke with Christ, never the Father. It was Christ who created us.
Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created ALL THINGS by Jesus Christ.
Col. 1:16 For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him:
The unknown author of Hebrews agrees with Paul?s inspired comments, that it was Christ who made ?the worlds?.
Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, by whom also he made THE WORLDS;
John soundly confirms his co-writers of the New testament
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:9-10 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
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Diabetes causes hamsters.
 
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
#4618126 - 09/03/05 11:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I suggest that you stop quoting the same scriptural words that we all have easy access to, understand that the formula 'God was in Christ,' is NOT the same as "Christ is God," particularly if you are confused about what the word 'Christ' means (which is what I was elaborating), and read John Shelby Spong's book Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes.
That reading will shed light on the origination of sciptural writings from within the Judaic tradition. Instead of naively assuming (and taking one's non-critical naivete for 'faith') that the stories of the Gospel narratives are accurate accounts (have you not noticed the obvious contradictions?) of historical events, understand that they are midrashic compilations - collections of my OT prophesies all distilled down and attributed to Y'shua ben Miriam.
I am a Jewish Christian who continues to swim upstream against the current of collective contradictions called Christianity. I prefer to know the Origin, not the later developments cast in Hellenistic mythological and philosophical terms. I have a background in philosophy as well, and no, I have never had a very strong Jewish identity, cultural or religious. I seek only the Truth, and faith does not rely on the annihilation of rationality, faith is 'transrational' and both modes of apprehending Reality can co-exist. However, the discernment of the knower - whether something is mythic or historical is what needs to be called into question. You are being polytheistic and you don't even know it. Your Christology is a late creation of speculative Gentile theologians which has no basis in the reality of Y'shua, as a 1st century Judean Jew or any of His friends and followers. There was no trinitarian theology then and Y'shua would have been aghast at being called God!
Use some common sense man. Think for yourself instead of parroting the Greek mythological overlays of God conceiving a 'Hero' with a mortal woman. That is Zeus and Semele and Dionysus [god of Nysus], or Zeus and his son Heracles [Hercules]. Son of God is a title of OT kings, not a unique title indicating an incarnation of God. This is not Jewish thought and Christianity in its inception and truth is a thoroughly Jewish development.
Do YOU want Truth? Think that being born in a manger lends a humbleness of character to a baby? How about a young Jewish woman who is raped by an occupying Roman soldier and gives birth to an 'illegitimate' (if there is such a thing) baby? Now THAT would be about as humble a character as one could be in those days. Instead of the lone, wandering Y'shua portyayed for centuries, how about a married messiah? Unmarried Jewish men were not permitted to speak openly in the Temple - they had not become fully adult because they had not yet integrated their sexuality (circumcision is not merely a sterile symbol BTW). Y'shua was said to have spoken openly in the Temple. Certain excluded Gospels state that Y'shua was known to kiss Mary[am] on the mouth. They may have been married. Not mentioned? Neither was His B'ris [Circumcision] or has Bar Mitzvah [Son of the Commandments]. Truth has been excluded from the selected writings, but appears in those exclusions. Meanwhile, insertions and contradictions fill the canon about Y'shua. Using you Heart to guide you, think for yourself for a change. See Y'shua for the God-Annointed man that He was, not the Greek Hero in Jewish garb.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Bamaman
...has issues.
Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 657
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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I am not parroting a single thing, I am self taught. I was raised atheist by my parents and came to be a believer by myself alone in my living room in the blink of an eye. I had no preconceived teachings about any religion because i disbelieved them all equally.
My moment of change caused me to start inquiring of some of my Christian friends who all read from the same book but all gave different answers based on what they were taught by their parents, church, etc...
Being slightly disgusted with these conflicts, I sought off to study the scriptures alone with no doctrines or belief systems being influenced upon me. The Bible, concordance, Greek and Hebrew dictionaries become my source for interpretation. In some cases I used historical records to get better understanding of the culture, or time that was being discussed but never a single commentary or denominational Bible study.
After about 5 years of intensive study 3-10 hrs a day, with some firm footing in what the Bible says on most major doctrinal issues. I then sought out what groups taught what doctrines. I am by my own definition a non-denominational Sabbatarian Christian. I began seeking out those with similar doctrinal beliefs as I.
I have fellowshipped with many Sabbatarians and have had thousands of theological and doctrinal debates with just about every manner of believer and non-believer. I have spent much time around Messianic Israelites, and the pastor of the Sabbath keeping church I attended for awhile was a former Rabbi, whose father and grandfather were also. With whom I had much pleasure in seeing things from the Jewish perspective.
I am not your typical Sunday keeping, easter attending, christmas obervsing Christian...that you probably assumed I was.
I am aware of looking through Jewish eyes for I am a Jew, an Israelite and of Abraham's seed. Not by blood, as man has ordained such a definition. But by spirit as defined by God. Use of the holy names is nothing new to me but most don't connect too well with such... since most have no clue what they represent.
I have also studied much on translations and the origins of such, anti-semitism that can be found in such tranlations, and theories of borrowed belief systems such as mythological overlays you have mentioned, gnostic writings, the apocrypha, etc....
You have assumed much about me right off the bat. You also assume much about the Iraelites who made as many mistakes on their interpretation and understanding of God's word, as Christians do. Man-made tradition has been the watering down of truth for both groups, and has blinded them both in many respects.
I am happy for your impressive degrees, again much "taught" information. Possibly coupled by a "taught" belief system that originally started in your home as a child??
I may be wrong, but I expect that my studies began with a much cleaner slate than yours... unless you had never opened a Bible or attended a church until you began self teaching.
My credentials are:
11th grade education
well above average IQ
theologically self taught
and
can whip just about any college grad I've played in trivial pursuit...
definitely not as impressive as your degrees, but I'm more than happy with it
Good luck in whatever it is that defines you spiritually, may YWH guide your feet ever closer to Him.
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Diabetes causes hamsters.
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MJF
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
#4618652 - 09/04/05 03:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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gabriel marry jesus
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
#4618731 - 09/04/05 05:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Every Prophet is a 'projection' of g*d in the sense of a prophecy-based theology, like the abraham-istic one is.
The Jews and the Moslems see Jesus as an important prophet and that is what he was.
The Jews wait for their messias until now and I don't think the muslims tend to define Mohammed as a god, hehe.
That was mainly a theological trick, to make 'my prophet' better then 'your prophet'. Which was pleasently worked out and widened by the catholic church.
In the sense, you see a prophet as g*d himself, you must see the part of that g*d inside yourself too. If you consider this, it is not exclusive.
But it is true, that Jesus never wanted be seen as god himself.
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MJF
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4618842 - 09/04/05 08:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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how did Joseph die?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Bamaman]
#4619002 - 09/04/05 10:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I didn't "assume" anything about you. You responded to one or more of my posts with a list of Biblical quotations, with your commentaries in between. There is no assumption there on my part. YOU assume that the Biblical quotes are somehow foundational, perhaps you hold that they are 'the word of GOD.' I am certain that Paul of Tarsus never dreamed that his mere letters to budding churches were going to be revered as holy writ.
I have mentioned degree work in the past, but not in the context of holding superior authority. Those degrees represent investments of life-time and the emphasis is on the importance to me of the quest for Truth, which I believe you can relate to. I was a young man in college, and completed seminary when I was 25 years old. I am currently 52 years old, so what you may be sensing is not half a dozen years of classroom instruction, but 33 years of dedicated seeking.
My parents were Reformed American cultural Jews. It is true that my Father did start a Temple, even converted an old farmhouse until the congregation was large enough to build a real Temple. I helped him run wire through the old structure when I was just 4, but my Father was primarily a Freemason, and in building a Temple, he was in line with Masonic myth. He also was a wanna-be "wheel" (his term for someone important). My Mother was a high-strung, atheistic individual til her dying day. They sent me off to Sunday and Hebrew school, but I rebelled in adolescence and was never Bar Mitzvah. I was a young scientific materialist til college when my late adolescent inner life led me to the Satanic Bible as my first ritualization of materialism. Psychedelics helped move me out of that theatrical enterprise to ceremonial magick (Crowley, Wicca, etc.), and then the Light of Indian thought dawned and Yoga preoccupied me, along with related Neoplatonic Greek philosophy. I read the New Testament on the way out of college, got into and dropped out of teacher-training for Transcendental Meditation, got Baptised and entered a seminary.
I apologize if you felt that I over-reacted, but oftentimes a radical revisioning of Christianity here results in a barrage of scriptural 'proofs,' which proves nothing to me except someone's overcompensation for their own self-doubts, and 'proof' that they have swallowed the theological agenda of Constantine's henchmen - the so-called Church Fathers - who were empowered to decide which writings would characterize Christianity, and which books would not. Like an early Jewish follower of 'The Way,' I choose to make my own decisions. My agenda is the Truth, not a political agenda nor any power agenda. I don't want to change the world, just myself.
Peace.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
#4619015 - 09/04/05 10:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is held by some (like J.S. Spong) that the Joseph character was an insertion into the origin story of Jesus. It IS possible that His Mother had been raped by a Roman. The idea of a virgin birth was common in antiquity to highlight the divinity and importance of this or that being, not unique to anyone except moderns who only catch wind of the Bible version of it.
Joseph of Arimethea is another 'Joseph' that appears at Jesus' death, sort of a literary balance to the Joseph of His birth. There are different ways of reading the Bible, and the literary analysis lends another level of meaning to the intentions of the writers.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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XUL
OTD Janitor
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4619102 - 09/04/05 10:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?
if we are talking abotu christianity, then its the way of a christian to try and spread the good word.
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TRUMP 2020
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Pmog
I's
Registered: 08/25/05
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
#4619222 - 09/04/05 11:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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why is it that people believe that other people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others? :P
And so what?
It takes two, to tango..
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Life! = !Life
Life = birthing
Life = dying
!life = death <-> birth = life!
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 !LIVE!
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MJF
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so did jospeh raise him as his son?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MJF]
#4620069 - 09/04/05 06:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Look, I wasn't there, so only GOD knows for sure. The Gospel narratives are not accurate, journalistic, eye-witness accounts of anything. There was no reporter form the Bethlehem or Nazareth Gazette (depending on the account) taking notes on a baby, visited by Persian Zoroastrian mages, whilst an astonomical anomaly cast beams of light upon a manger in which a newborn baby glowed like a 100 watt bulb. Never happened. Midrash. Mythos. Doesn't matter anyway, only The Way [to Be] matters.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MJF
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I wasn't actually searching for the absolute truth...just wanted to know if you had any speculative thoughts. sometimes thoughts just jump into my brain about jesus' life....and i wonder if other people have had those thoughts before.
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