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Offlinelightemup
Got a Wick
Registered: 06/17/05
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Do U Believe In Jesus?
    #4566531 - 08/22/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yesterday while in a Public setting a stranger approached me and asked, "Do You Believe In Jesus?" Wanting to remain neutral on the subject, I explained I believe in a Higher Power....

Needless to say, the above person tried to push the subject to a higher level of discussion... However a reversal of the situation paid off, as this person wagged his tail between his legs.

My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4566540 - 08/22/05 03:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Usually if someone is overly anxious to press their beliefs on other people, they lack confidence in these beliefs.

As for Jesus, I believe that he was an actual person, but nothing beyond that.


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Invisiblepeeper
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4566557 - 08/22/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Jesus may have lived at one point but he has nothing to do with today.


--------------------


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: peeper]
    #4566697 - 08/22/05 04:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My opinion jesus was a person with huge charisma and he knew how to use it. He inspired people to follow him and he challenged a fucked up system. His deeds carried such sway with the common people that ultimatly the system had to be changed to include him or risk failing altogether. But rome being as old as it was couldn't handle the change and collapsed anyway.

But the higher ups in society latched onto the jesus story and it slowly morphed into what we have today. There was no hell or satan, nor was jesus the son of god; these were all added many, many years after his death. Timelines have been created out of the blue and a whole world creation story made up all to fit the deeds of one man.

Were jesus here today he would be challenging our system just like he did rome. Our modern day system is a roman emporer's wet dream. Interesting to draw comparisions to modern day money changers and temples. Stock market and pentagon? Who knows. He wouldn't be waving our flag that's for sure.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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Offlinelightemup
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4566731 - 08/22/05 04:28 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Real Question...??? Is it right for strangers to ask a common stranger, a question and then argue the fact, especially when They will be leaving you from that question in a matter of minutes never seeing you again.......??? Its an easy way out...... and a a fast conversation


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4566879 - 08/22/05 05:22 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.

A few minutes ago my Lady's step-mother (who recently spent 2 weeks with us) phoned from one of her homes (Germany). I answered the phone and she told me that she'd ordered me a book on line when she was here. I passed the phone to my Lady and went outside to get the mail. Lo and behold! The book was there. Interesting coincidence. It is one of those 600+ page personal accounts of some modern day [female] 'mystic' who has long 'visionary' adventures with Jesus and His people. Flipping through it, I saw that a certain 'James' was called the 'cousin' of Jesus, which is a Catholic lie - refuting that Mary, mother of Jesus ever had any other children ("ever virgin"), when the Good Book says otherwise.

OK, synchronistic event constellated around Christian theme, but I find this kind of female Jesus fantasy stuff abhorrent. I don't even want this book on the same shelf with my Christian theological and historical texts, and I'm divided in my regard with this woman because she is one of those fundamentalist types who had the nerve to ask me if I completely accepted Jesus - you see, there is a good deal of art in our home that is Buddhist, Hindu, Egyptian, Pagan and Jewish in addition to Christian things. I am a grown man with degrees in philosophy and theology, but I don't pontificate in my home or walk around with a robe and morter-board on my head, yet this woman doubts that I 'believe' in Jesus because I do not believe as she does, which is to say a belief in the Christian myths, literally, without philosophical, theological or psychological considerations.

So, yes, I believe in Jesus, but in so saying, I mean simply that He is my model for Human Development, the Way of Freedom and thus my spiritual Master.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4566925 - 08/22/05 05:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.



That's pretty similar to my current view. I see him as an ordinary man who attained Christ Consciousness.


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4566999 - 08/22/05 05:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

[to markos]
If you see the logos clothed in flesh, your eyes have been clothed in logos...
:laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4567641 - 08/22/05 08:49 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ordinary perhaps, but He didn't earn, achieve or attain His status - He was graced with it.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4567650 - 08/22/05 08:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know this?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
    #4567822 - 08/22/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How do you know this?




like most other religious thought, it is known through intense navel gazing and good imagination. It is then transferred by proclaiming it as if it is the unquestionable truth.

Christ was a model to follow, not an idol to be worshipped.

see, it is quite easy to do.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
    #4568171 - 08/22/05 10:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I suppose one could say that I know by faith, which means that I can't 'prove' anything - not that I want to - but it is the assumption that I make based on all that I've thought/felt/intuited on the matter. It is also coherent with the internal consistency of the writings (Bible, Nag Hammadi library) and I have carefully filtered out any Indian philosophical considerations (like a Paramanhansa Yogananda interpretation). Anyway, my 'faith' is like 'a razor's edge' along which I tread. When I decide in favor of some doctrine over another, the faith ceases to be a living reality which suspends my intellectual acceptance of a doctrine. Only the contemplative process seems to convey the Truth, not any arrival at a neat formula, doctrine or dogma.
I hope this makes some kind of sense, but if any 'assurance' occurs, it is not through dead formlae but through transcendental contemplation.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleFreedomFight
Strange

Registered: 07/03/05
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4568505 - 08/22/05 11:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that Jesus was a great philosopher and he revolutionized the way many people view their connection with God. Unfortunately, none of us will ever know who Jesus really was; instead we must settle for the gospels and myths left behind by religious fanatics.


--------------------
I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.


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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: FreedomFight]
    #4568986 - 08/23/05 01:35 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i believe there was a man named jesus christ that may have done some awesome things but i dont believe he was the son of god.


--------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." 
~Thomas Jefferson

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4569204 - 08/23/05 02:16 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lightemup said:
Yesterday while in a Public setting a stranger approached me and asked, "Do You Believe In Jesus?" Wanting to remain neutral on the subject, I explained I believe in a Higher Power....

Needless to say, the above person tried to push the subject to a higher level of discussion... However a reversal of the situation paid off, as this person wagged his tail between his legs.

My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them... A stranger who knows nothing about the opposite person who is in passing and will have no further conversation or ever see the other person again is wasting his/her time in such subject matter... opinions?




I have no problem with someone evangelizing their beliefs. But they'd better back off when I say, "Back off."

I believe in God, Jesus, etc. I don't need anyone pushing their perception of the whole thing at me. I usually just say, "Hey, I believe. Now leave me alone."


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: lightemup]
    #4569480 - 08/23/05 06:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My question is... why is it that people try to "push" their religion (Beliefs) onto others, and would they be offended if someone did the same to them.




I suspect that most people that try to "push" their religion on others are insecure in their own beliefs.  If they can convince somebody else to believe as they do, then they can use that other persons belief as a crutch to help support their own faith.

I have experienced one person that tried to "bring people to Jesus" that I felt was doing it out of love, as opposed to self-gratification.  He was a preacher at one of the churches around the college I attended.  I used to eat lunch in one of the local bars, and he was always in there at the same time... never drinking, just sitting and chatting with people.  One day I asked him why he was always in there, and he said something like "where better to meet people without faith".  He never tried to "push" his faith on others, rather he simply made himself available to talk... and would turn the conversations towards his beliefs.  When word got back to the church that their preacher was speaking with the sinners in a bar, they quickly replaced him with somebody "more in line with the teachings of Jesus."

Quote:

Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I no longer believe that He is 'the logos clothed in flesh.' I rather believe as Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote that Jesus was 'a man Annointed [Christed] by GOD,' which is a universe different than John's Logos.




Markos, thank you.  :heart:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #4569525 - 08/23/05 07:47 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

'Son of God' was a title applied to any king in the Old Testament who was made king by the 'divine right of kingship.' A king was 'crowned' with a symbol of Enlightenment. Gold crowns suggesting rays of light, with large inset jewels at the third eye indicated wisdom. Multitudes of Gentile Christians for centuries who are unconscious of the Old Testament nature of Jesus and titles and references all have believed that Son of God was a title unique to Jesus. What is unique is the Johannine idea that Jesus Christ was 'God clothed with flesh,' the 'prolation of the second hypostatic person of the Trinity,' in later theology (Tertullian).

Jesus was facetiously titled King of the Jews by Pontius Pilate which pissed off the orthodox Jews of His time, but in fact Jesus was said to speak of the Kingdom of God (or the Kingdom of Heaven, because author Matthew didn't like writing a Name for 'God,' being extremely Jewish himself), but was referring to a 'dimension' or a 'state of being,' not a worldly theocratic government as the orthodox expected.

So, the apocalyptic title of Son of God may apply whereas incarnated God, or a God-man ('fully God, fully man') may not be anything more than Greek mythic language - a 'hero' born from a divine father and a mortal woman.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4569547 - 08/23/05 08:13 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

.
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I suppose one could say that I know by faith, which means that I can't 'prove' anything - not that I want to - but it is the assumption that I make based on all that I've thought/felt/intuited on the matter. It is also coherent with the internal consistency of the writings (Bible, Nag Hammadi library) and I have carefully filtered out any Indian philosophical considerations (like a Paramanhansa Yogananda interpretation). Anyway, my 'faith' is like 'a razor's edge' along which I tread. When I decide in favor of some doctrine over another, the faith ceases to be a living reality which suspends my intellectual acceptance of a doctrine. Only the contemplative process seems to convey the Truth, not any arrival at a neat formula, doctrine or dogma.
I hope this makes some kind of sense, but if any 'assurance' occurs, it is not through dead formlae but through transcendental contemplation.




Let me ask you this Markos, could it be this way for you and the another way for another? Could both be truth and valid. Could Jesus have attained his trancendence through grace, and for someone else could he have trancendence through his inner and outer struggle? Could you entertain that idea that you might not know? Or are you sure of the things you believe?

The reason I ask is, you make statements as if they were a absolute fact because you believe it. Is there any wiggle room?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
    #4571420 - 08/23/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

in a fascinating series of books, dead sea scrolls scholar dr hugh shonfield (_the passover plot_, _the jesus party_,  et seq.) suggests that this yeshua ben yosef consciously attempted to fulfill the jewish prophesies (as he interpreted them - close to the thought of the pharisees, & perhaps the essenes... but a bit farther from the zealots & the saducees, eh?) concerning the long-awaited "annointed one" to redeem israel & "immanentize the eschaton" (apollylollygies to shea & wilson :wink: ...) & establish the kingdom of righteousness...

well worth the read, imho...
(if only for another vantage-point on this pivotal figure in the course of westciv/worldciv... & the history of the past 2 millenia, eh?)

(i was raised lutheran & i'm still trying to figure out "who is this man?")(my own life-long koan, so it might seem... :wink: )

shalom
salaam
peace be with you
namaste
blessed be
shanti
om
:heart:


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do U Believe In Jesus? [Re: Icelander]
    #4571656 - 08/23/05 06:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I am coming from MY beliefs, I am not stating that "I AM the Truth." Y'shua ben Miriam, a 1st century Jew whose geneology is reflective of his mother Miriam (not the probably fictional Yosef [Joseph]), would have been horrified to discover that future generations were saying things like 'Jesus is GOD,' or 'Jesus created the world.' He allegedly said something like 'Why call thou me good, only GOD is good.' (KJV). In Aramaic, his mother would've called him 'Issa,' and in Hebrew, Y'shua (Joshua in English). Even in Greek which has no letter 'J' He would've been called Iesus [Ee-soos] not Jesus [Gee-zus].

Beginning with the simplest possible facts such as His Name, moderns don't even know these simple things. What was it to be a 1st century Jewish man about 30 years old who worked with his hands in a country occupied by enemy soldiers? That He had a uniquely potent connection to GOD is unquestionable, but the Hellenistic mythological overlays and the later Hellenistic philosophical concepts that were applied to His psychospiritual nature are clearly just that - AS IF He didn't know what was up and only later Greek philosophy-influenced theologians had to tell the world what his nature was. Tertullian coined the term Trinity, but trinitarian deity was recognized in Egypt as Osirus-Horus-Isis, not original. Y'shua's Judaism was in this:
"Shema Y'israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echod" - 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.' NOT Three. Such things appeared centuries later in Kabbalism, but NOT with Y'shua.

So, simply knowing a little bit about 1st century Judean Jews, one can extrapolate many things. Y'shua MUST have been circumcized into the Covenant of Abraham on the 8th day after His birth - but the Bible or other writings don't mention it. He MUST have been Bar Mitzvah, if He was going to fulfill (even self-fulfill) any OT prophesies, but it's not in the Bible (His trip to Jerusalem with the family was not His Bar Mitzvah). He may have been married because unmarried men were not allowed to speak openly in the Temple, since they were not considered to be whole men until the sexual dimension was functioning in marriage. The Bible says that Y'shua DID speak openly in the Temple, so was He married? Could the Magdalene been His wife? Early Catholics wanted to portray Him as elevated about such things because of their very un-Jewish negation of sexuality. The mother of Y'shua was supposed to be 'ever-virgin' and have had no other children according to Rome - NOT according to the Bible as written under the auspices of Constantine's henchmen.

When doing hermeneutics - the interpretation of scriptures - one has to work from within the framework of the period in which the recorded phenomenon occurred. The NT was written anywhere from 40-120 years after Y'shua 'died.' No, He didn't travel to Tibet or India; no, Buddhist monks didn't teach Him how to be a JuBu (Jewish Buddhist). He wasn't as Essene from any evidence, though He must have known about them. He didn't take psychedelics - no mushrooms, ergot-laden shewbread, Syrian Rue, cannabis, calamus, or nepenthe. I believe that He was special, unique, life-changing to a degree unparalleled in humankind. Simply by familiarizing oneself with descriptions of His personality from a common Bible one can get an idea, a gestalt of the nature of this man. My own life has been changed radically from recognizing the superiority of His humanity and centering that nature in my heart-of-hearts. What more can I say? The Miraculous is in my own interior.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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