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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Are our lives are own to make or take?
    #4566463 - 08/22/05 02:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If we don't have control over this, who or what does?

And by our own to make I mean, what we make of them.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566478 - 08/22/05 02:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
If we don't have control over this, who or what does?




The will to power, as far as I can tell.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4566506 - 08/22/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

And do we have control over that willpower or does something else have control over it for us?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566529 - 08/22/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The same will drives us all but manifests itself in different ways.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4566591 - 08/22/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm following you though you are not answering my question. Who or what is in control of that will?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566596 - 08/22/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

In shallah
At last consequence, we are responsible for our will


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566604 - 08/22/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
If we don't have control over this, who or what does?

And by our own to make I mean, what we make of them.




from the personal point of view, we have right to do whatever we want with out life.
But from the point of view of a friend, I think we all have obligation to help our friends in their journey.

For example, a decision of suicide is often (not in cases where you have no chance of survival and you experience pain) a stupid decision, because it is based on momental imbalance of the emotional mind.
there are other ways to deal with that.

Killing yourself because of bad emotions is like destroying a house because you don't like a wallpaper in one room. There is an easier and better way to deal with that: tear down the wallpaper, and put a new one that you like


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4566626 - 08/22/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Old, the question of this post is, WHO or WHAT has control over what we make or take from our lives?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566629 - 08/22/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You could say we have control of them because the illusion of control is there.

In all actuality, it's never that simple. There's too many factors and faces around us, all affecting us in different ways. We have the ability to commit suicide, but say someone comes in and psychologically tortures us over an extended period, always spreading rumors and making friends into enemies. Then you decide to kill yourself. You could say you made that choice, but if that person had never been there, and hypothetically you would've never killed yourself, then it's only the illusion of complete control.

Control is just the sum total of all the factors built up into us.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566635 - 08/22/05 04:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I'm following you though you are not answering my question. Who or what is in control of that will?




Perhaps the will is beyond concepts such as who or what.  Maybe it simply is.  :slider:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566666 - 08/22/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Old, the question of this post is, WHO or WHAT has control over what we make or take from our lives?




us?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4566677 - 08/22/05 04:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for a direct answer wood.

Ravus, you didn't directly answer the question either.

prety much what I did get from your reply is that we are both the victim and victor of circimstance.

So, is your answer "circumstance" is in control of what we make or take of our lives?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566712 - 08/22/05 04:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How do you directly answer a question like that?

"Are our lives our own to make or take?"

How many factors in the universe influence our lives? How many different people influence it? We are not in a vaccuum; the constant influences end up being what makes our life.

If you agree that we are the sum total of our influences and past experiences (all happening on the blank slate of our genetics, as an analogy), then being the sum total of our influences and contained in a body, we do have ultimate control over our lives and issues such as suicide. But to first to make that person, many other factors go into it that are completely outside our control.

So we are in control of our own decisions, but we are not in control of who we are, if that answers your question.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: Ravus]
    #4566747 - 08/22/05 04:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

how do you directly answer it?

Like wood did when he said "Us" as in, "Yes, I think they are ours to make or take" as in, "I think we are the ones in control", and you did in so many words when you said and reclarified "influential circumstances" as in "I think circumstances influence what we make or take from our lifes" as in in "I think circumstances are in influential control".

Thank you for replying with your thoughts.

Anymore out there? I'm curious to understand how others see it.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: Ravus]
    #4566794 - 08/22/05 04:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How many factors in the universe influence our lives? How many different people influence it? We are not in a vaccuum; the constant influences end up being what makes our life.




Ultimately, we are the greatest influence on our own life. Different people, in nearly identical circumstances, choose what to think about those circumstances.

Even a helpless child, suffering abuse at the hands of his parents, can choose to think "being grown up means exercising power over others. When I grow up, I'm going to be the one in charge." and carry on the cycle of abuse. Or he could choose to think "this is wrong. I do not want to hurt those who are more helpless than I am, why do my parents hurt me this way? When I grow up, I will offer only love and guidance to the helpless."

I do not say that these choices are easy, but I will say that the latter choice involves more consciousness and less "automatic pilot" behavior. The outside influence remains the same, but the results of the internalized influence are what we see acted out every day.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: Veritas]
    #4566980 - 08/22/05 05:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

[to Jiggy]
Try to merge 'as g*d wishes', and 'your responsibility for your will' together, then you get, what I mean.
The outer world is 'In shallah'. as god wishes...and your responsible will, formed out of your inherent universe, will actually interact with that.

Sometimes those boarders get fluent...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4567082 - 08/22/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I understand that. I may post a cool bit I found the other day on origins. I was wondering about other peoples thoughts and reasoning. Thats all.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/22/05 06:43 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4567122 - 08/22/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Our lives were given to us by the spirit or God, whichever terminology you prefer. They are not ours to take in a frivolous manner. Life is sacred and the taking of it should only be out of great consideration of need. When someone takes their life it brings great pain to those who care for them and it is, therefore, a selfish act.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4567143 - 08/22/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Life is no more sacred than any other collection are molecules; we are simply changing, shedding cells and eventually dying and recycling those molecules back into the universe. The molecules are more significant and lasting than the life contained in them will ever be.

Quote:

When someone takes their life it brings great pain to those who care for them and it is, therefore, a selfish act.




Is it not the opposite also a selfish act? The only reason this would stop someone is if they felt bad about it, and in that case, it corresponds directly to their selfish emotions.

Is it not also selfish for the family and friends to want someone to stay alive during times of extreme suffering, when they would choose to end their own life? The families only want the person there for selfish motives; mainly, they don't want to lose that person out of their life, they don't want to feel the grief and sadness and loss from the death of that person.

In the end, isn't everything selfish?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are our lives are own to make or take? [Re: Ravus]
    #4567169 - 08/22/05 06:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Life is sacred and the taking of it should only be out of great consideration of need"

I think that the actions that would come of this philosophy are reasonable. I pronounced no absolute wrong or right. I added a spiritual interpretation, but should life be taken frivolously...or only after great consideration?

"Is it not also selfish for the family and friends to want someone to stay alive during times of extreme suffering"

Maybe with a severely painful terminal illness, but what about a mere personal crisis? I have had more than my share of them...they are always temporary and leave you more the wiser. A personal problem is no cause for death.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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