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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Ego Death]
    #4566282 - 08/22/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
What does the/any master gain by devoting his life to zen/buddism?





Probably the realization that there is nothing to gain, ever, and that there is no one to gain anything, anyways. :wink:

Or is that a vauge answer? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Ego Death]
    #4566286 - 08/22/05 01:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well,
it sounds like an orderly way to join an order, in order to be a good proponent of that order in this world of disorder.
you may express the orders of that order and transmit the order in an orderly way to those with aspirations.

I was originally impressed by the instantaneous and spontaneous nature of zen experience. (it progresses into a more rigorous institution as it gains followers)


--------------------


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Ego Death]
    #4567467 - 08/22/05 08:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
What does the/any master gain by devoting his life to zen/buddism?




There is nothing to gain.  For there is nothing at all. There is only losing.  You start with everything, your desires, opinions, likes/dislikes, associations, and suffering, and work those out so you simply experience what you are experiencing at every moment.  THIS MOMENT!!  If you have ever sat in Zazen for an extended period of time, everything feels clearer. You can hear more sounds, and sense your entire field of perception at once.  Essentially "inner peace."  Pardon the cliche.

Quote:

Why devote ones life to zen?




To make the teachings available for others.  To wake up and realize the true nature of experiencing.  Living as a monastic simply allows you to competely immerse yourself in the practice, ie, meditating while doing everything.  Every action in the monastery has forms to go with it. Such as bows, hand motions, postures etc...


Quote:

How would your master respond?




If I knew how a Zen master would respond, I would already be one.



:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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Offlinetomk
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #4567940 - 08/22/05 09:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Here is a serious question not asked yet.

I understand the attraction to buddhism. Why did you choose a zen school rather then another school? I always thought if I wanted to study more buddhism, I would go into a school that emphasized the development of compassion and loving kindness, rather then zen. So I am interested in your take on this.

Do they really let you go to bars?


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: tomk]
    #4569449 - 08/23/05 06:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are mis-informed of your think that zen practice does not include loving kindess and compassion.

Zen practioners follow the same principles as any other Mahayana path, whether it be gradual style (such as in Tibetan buddhism) or non-gradual sytle (such as in chinese and japanese zen). They all have, at their fundamental basis, the same princples.

"
The PARAMITAS or Perfections

The Six Principles of Enlightened Living

The Six Paramitas occupy a prominent place in the Mahayana scriptures as a Buddhist?s way of life leading to Buddhahood. They are:

1. Generosity (Liberality)
2. Conduct (Morality)
3. Patience (Forbearance)
4. Energy (Diligence, Industrious, Hard Work)
5. Meditation
6. Wisdom

This list of six is a shortened version of the ten qualities for which enlightened beings strive in their every day living. Since they are concerned about the welfare of all beings and strive to end their suffering and unjust treatment, they (1) give alms to all beings so that they may be happy, without investigating whether they are worthy or not, (2) avoid doing them any harm by observing morality, (3) train themselves in renunciation in order to bring morality to perfection, (4) purify their wisdom in order to understand clearly what is beneficial and injurious, (5) constantly exert energy for the welfare and happiness of others, (6) practice patience towards the variety of human failings, (7) do not break their promise once pledging to give or do something, (8) resolve with determination to work for the welfare of all beings, (9) are always kind and helpful to all, and (10) expect nothing in return and constantly practice equanimity. These qualities as expressed thusly in the Ten Paramitas:

1. Perfection in Generosity, Giving (Liberality)
2. Perfection in Morality (Conduct)
3. Perfection in Renunciation
4. Perfection in Wisdom
5. Perfection in Diligence (Industrious)
6. Perfection in Patience (Forbearance)
7. Perfection in Truthfulness
8. Perfection in Resolution (Determination, Purpose)
9. Perfection in Loving-Kindness
10. Perfection in Equanimity
"
This is the basis of all Mahayana practice, including zen. But the mephasis in zen is a little different, as in Zen, one realizes that if one perfects the sixth paramita of "wisdom", all the other paramitas and precepts are automatically perfected, hence why it is considered by many to be a non-gradual path, whereas in Tibetan buddhism, one diligently practices the first five paramitas and accumilations until eventually, after a considerably long time, one realizes the "prajnaparamita" or wisdom that recognises the emptiness of all conditioned phenomena. Compassion for all beings, automatically arises out of this knowlege.


--------------------


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: tomk]
    #4570656 - 08/23/05 02:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Here is a serious question not asked yet.

I understand the attraction to buddhism.  Why did you choose a zen school rather then another school?  I always thought if I wanted to study more buddhism, I would go into a school that emphasized the development of compassion and loving kindness, rather then zen.  So I am interested in your take on this.

Do they really let you go to bars?




Zen to me is the ultimate expression of experience.  You are aware of your self, but what is it that is aware of being aware?  Why does the room move around you as you take a step?  Why do colors and forms appear and then are gone?  If one is practicing with sincerity, the moment will yield the best outcome to every possible scenario. 

Until I take my laymonks vows, I can do whatever I want.  I shouldnt, but I can. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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Offlinetomk
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #4571773 - 08/23/05 07:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

In that case, why the prevalence of alcoholism among western zen masters?

Let me challenge you, but with the disclaimer that I think you are al ot more literate with me on this.

I would say it's because Zen neglects an important aspect of Buddhist thought. Particularly, the moment will only yeild to the best possible outcome to every possible senario, if one A.) develops compassion, and B.) recognizes the psychological kinks that motivate actions.

Maybe another way of saying this would be that maybe zen focuses too much on enlightenment, and not enough practical stuff on developing a healthy mind and a worthy expression of that enlightenment.

If you see everything as it really is, it's really easy to get very depressed from it. I am more attracted to the schools of thought where you approach enlightenment type experience alongside developing self-love and compassion (is it metta, loving kindness?). I don't know. I'm sure zen is great for a certain kind of person, but it's approach seems somewhat wrong to me in this. Some people have some work to do before becoming enlightened, and zen might be so effective that people who aren't psychologically ready for it might get it. ???

Maybe I am not aware about how much cross cultural training goes on or how much this is integrated with zen?

ETA: I missed the post above, that one, which was great. I still have a nagging worry though. Namely, I'm not convinced that perfect wisdom does lead to perfection of the other qualities. In fact, as the cases of alcoholism among zen masters would suggest, it quite obviously seems to me like it does not. In other words, the knowledge you talk about conditioned response, doesn't help at all with the question of how to first of all, break out of those habits, and second of all, choose wisely in replacing them. I dunno.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Edited by tomk (08/23/05 07:59 PM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: tomk]
    #4572111 - 08/23/05 09:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
1st: Shiho Transmission is when a monk has realized the Dharma (the teachings) and is able to instruct others. There is a ceremony, great bows, chanting, recitation of vows, etc...




how do they know you reach that state? How do you know? How do they know you aren't making things up? Do monks have some sort of psychic communication... can they just like, look into your "being" and see when you've reached certain stages of "enlightenment"

do zen monks believe in stream consciousness? How do you know if you've reached it? (i'm pondering if i have made it there once or twice)

:hippie:




i know someone whose dad is a zen "master" and he says he smokes pot and drinks, and i was wondering if the zen approach to buddhism is okay with general drug use as long as it isn't gratuitious?
(everything in moderation!) but some buddhists seem to forbid any substances since they hinder your meditation, etc.



also... how do you know what ZAZEN is? I have had a few really good meditational sessions where I *****think**** i have reached a ****significant**** state, and I know it's a "good" state, but I don't know if it's the same state others reach.

i got there by chasing thoughts verbally until i was left in between thoughts to bear witness to "instant -voiceless- thought impulses" which... i could sort of straddle ... inside.

or something. It's hard to explain and I haven't been back since... small amounts of pot and self introspection got me there.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: leery11]
    #4573717 - 08/24/05 03:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:

also... how do you know what ZAZEN is? I have had a few really good meditational sessions where I *****think**** i have reached a ****significant**** state, and I know it's a "good" state, but I don't know if it's the same state others reach.






Zazen is not a state you can cultivate.  If you notice anything at all, you are not practicing.  Open to you entire experience.  Tasting, touching, smelling, hearing, seeing, and thinking.  Thoughts are really just a tiny insignificant part of our experience that we attach so much to, and in doing so tend to conceptualize about our experience rather than actually experiencing it.  Keep this in mind.  A "state" is simply  something that arises within your awareness.  Hunger is a state, you experience all sorts of things when you are hungry.  but you are still aware that there is a "you" to be hungry.  Ore when you are mad, happy, blissed out, high, pissed off completely, jealous, clear, everything that arises for you is simply arising with and as this present moment.          If you can label the state, you are noticing it.  If you like, dislike, find good or bad, you are thinking not practicing. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


Edited by Quoiyaien (08/24/05 03:34 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: tomk]
    #4573953 - 08/24/05 07:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Zen is a non-gradual approach toward Buddhism which focuses on realizing the wisdom mind in which all other qualifications of compassion, loving kindness, morality, etc are instantaneously perfected within the non-dual state. Zen practitioners do not neglect to develop compassion, or any other qualification, because all the enlightened qualities are completely and naturally perfected within the non-dual state, which is the main emphasis of the non-gradual path known as Zen.

Zen is non-gradual, and for this reason it does not emphases developing the enlightened qualities in a very gradual, dualistic fashion like the Tibetan path of Mahayana Buddhism. If you feel more attracted to the gradual approach, then good for you, but you should not misunderstand the path of Zen to be lacking in any of the qualities that the other Mahayana paths emphasize in the way of gradual development.

Whatever you may think about Zen, you should not judge a whole path, based on the actions of a few practioners. In the case of alcoholic western Zen practioners, this is not the fault of Zen, but the fault of the practitioners themselves. What flavour of Buddhism one can truly put into practice greatly depends on ones own capacity. Honesty with regard to ones capacity, is the first step to finding a spiriutal path that one can sincerly practice. Zen functions well for those who have a connection and the specific kind of capacity required.

Why practice a slow and gradual path, if you have the capacity to practice a quicker, non-gradual one? Why walk, if you can drive?


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (08/24/05 07:53 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #4573994 - 08/24/05 08:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:

Zazen is not a state you can cultivate. If you notice anything at all, you are not practicing. Open to you entire experience. Tasting, touching, smelling, hearing, seeing, and thinking. Thoughts are really just a tiny insignificant part of our experience that we attach so much to, and in doing so tend to conceptualize about our experience rather than actually experiencing it. Keep this in mind. A "state" is simply something that arises within your awareness. Hunger is a state, you experience all sorts of things when you are hungry. but you are still aware that there is a "you" to be hungry. Ore when you are mad, happy, blissed out, high, pissed off completely, jealous, clear, everything that arises for you is simply arising with and as this present moment. If you can label the state, you are noticing it. If you like, dislike, find good or bad, you are thinking not practicing.





I am copying my Kafka finding, and I am interested in what you think about that?


Quote:

redgreenvines said:{Re: kafka freaks me out}
amazingly he was a meditator par excellence!

consider this:
Quote:

. . . . You do not need to leave the room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait. Do not even wait, be quite still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. (Kafka: The Great Wall of China: Stories and Reflections)








also
when you say
Quote:

If you can label the state, you are noticing it. If you like, dislike, find good or bad, you are thinking not practicing.





I think that you might have oversimplified:
bare awareness does not exactly need extra labelling though it is helpful in starting, and practice could well include intimacy with like and dislike when it does not "unseat" the meditator.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: tomk]
    #4574061 - 08/24/05 09:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
In that case, why the prevalence of alcoholism among western zen masters?




Source?

Or are you simply referring to Alan Watts, who couldn't actually be described as a Zen master, merely that of a person who held a strong intellectual understanding of Zen?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4581636 - 08/25/05 11:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I think that you might have oversimplified:
bare awareness does not exactly need extra labelling though it is helpful in starting, and practice could well include intimacy with like and dislike when it does not "unseat" the meditator.




Think of it this way.  When you put your hand into warm water, you know its warm without thinking its warm.  Or you know you've got pants on without thinking about it.  As soon as ... becomes "..." you are back in your head. 

I'm curious on what you mean when you say "unseat"?  We might be agreeing here but I am not totally sure. 

What is Kafka?  I have never heard of it. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #4582475 - 08/26/05 01:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you are accepting of sensation (yet labelling as a practice)
and
you can be equally so with thought as part of the bouquet - of "isness"
without judgment
so to see things in natural proportion arising and falling away


kafka was turn of the century author - philosopher western mystic


--------------------


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4582745 - 08/26/05 02:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

...you can be equally so with thought as part of the bouquet - of "isness"







Yeah, right on!  Not a lot of people get that.  A thought is like the color red.  It is as it is.  Red is red, blue is blue, eye is eye, thought is thought. 

To quote the Buddha, "And How, Monks, does one live completely viewing mental states as states?
And again, Monks, one live completely viewing the six internal and external sense-fields as mental states.  And how, Monks, does one live completely viewing the six subjective and objective sense fields as mental states?"


I love the Sattipathana Sutta, it is the basic foundation of mindfulness.     

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #4583129 - 08/26/05 07:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well, it is a fair treatise, useful.

your open practice is the only foundation of mindfulness.


--------------------


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Offlinebleedforthis
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4584236 - 08/26/05 04:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This sounds very interesting so far. Where could I find more about Zen Philosophy?


--------------------
As my pupils fluttered and tried to fly out of my skull I asked myself, "Is THIS what you want?".
Screaming until my lungs bled, I simply replied "No!"


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: bleedforthis]
    #4584788 - 08/26/05 07:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bleedforthis said:
This sounds very interesting so far. Where could I find more about Zen Philosophy?




Zen is not a philosophy, belief, faith or religion.  It is a practice.  It essentially all boils down to NOW.  It is so simple, yet it is in that simplicity that it is all very complex. 

Here are a few of my favorite web sites:

Maximum Bliss
Yahoo Zen directory

Although you are more likely to get more from a book. "The Compass of Zen"  By Zen Master Seung Sahn is pretty good. 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

:japsmile:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: bleedforthis]
    #4584958 - 08/26/05 08:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bleedforthis said:
This sounds very interesting so far. Where could I find more about Zen Philosophy?




Buy the book "Zen Mind, Beginners Mmind" By Shuynru Suzki. It is the best book i have read on Soto Zen to date.


--------------------


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Re: So I'm moving into a Zen Monastery... [Re: Sinbad]
    #4592104 - 08/28/05 09:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Wa!  I just finished my first retreat.  I sat for 12 damn hours!  My back hurts like hell, my knees are sore, and I am clearer than I have ever been in my entire life!  This is only the start!  During Jukai, I have to sit for 3 days, 14 hours a day, then on the final day, I sit all night, from sun down to sun up!  Though this is not for another year. Thats 54 hours of meditation in 3 days!  I love this! 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:

:japsmile:


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