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 daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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 Failure/Success 
#4557960 - 08/20/05 06:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you attempt to fail at something, but instead succeed, which have you done?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Failure/Success [Re: daimyo]
#4557970 - 08/20/05 06:34 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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You have a failed/successful post on S&P at the shroomery. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/20/05 06:36 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Failure/Success [Re: daimyo]
#4558256 - 08/20/05 09:06 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you attempt to fail at something, but instead succeed, which have you done?
Failed twice, therefore succeeded. It's a double negative which becomes a positive by convention.
Or maybe you haven't "done" anything other than get lucky and succeeded against the odds and your negativity going into the activity.
Of course, the will to survive and succeed is strong. Look at how many "failed" suicide attempts there are every year...
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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SketchyTX05
Beginner to theJourney
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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You did both.
Objective One: Fail at something
Objective Two: Be successful failing at something
You still failed at the first objective, which is precisely what you intended to do (So, in that intention, you succeeded, but still failed the original objective.) Being successful at failing something is only the second part of the equation, not the primary part. Succeeded in your effort to fail doesn't mean you never failed. It simply means that along with a failure, there was a succeeding element.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Failure/Success [Re: daimyo]
#4558564 - 08/20/05 10:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Can you give an example of where how and why one would attempt to fail at something?
I couldn't find a way to even imagine the proposition.
I couldn't imagine how a success would result instead.
If I wanted to fail at something I would completely withdraw all effort. How could a success take place?
This might be neat to explore if I can think of a realistic scenario for how it could go down.
It might give insight on how to succeed for those who are prone to self sabotage or failure get in their own way or who are their own worst enemies.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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This might be neat to explore if I can think of a realistic scenario for how it could go down.
90% of the people going into a casino expect to lose, to fail. Of those 90%, most "succeed" at failing. The very few who do not were the ones who got lucky and had the wisdom to keep some of the "house" money, at least for that night...
People expect to fail, to lose, all the time and in practically everything they do. There is only one success, one winner. Second place is the first loser. How many bronze medalists at the Olympics get the big endorsements? 
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Lunar,
May I ask how you see a double negative being a positive? Are you looking at it objectively and not subjectively.
How are we suppose to be looking at this proposition?
I came up with a working example that still doesn't work out into anything but a double negative for the subject.
Say this kid had a dream of becoming a shoe designer. His Father wants him to be a doctor. His Father requests that he at least give being a doctor a shot first and if it fails, he can be whatever he wants.
So the kid decides to fail med school "while pretending to be trying".
How could you not fail it if you wanted to though?
He could still pass with intervention. His Father could have payed off the teachers to pass him.
Even that's far fetched and not realistic.
All I see is that the kid failed at becoming a shoe designer and failed at failing to become a doctor- a double negative.
Where's the positive Lunar?
There is a positive for the Father, not the kid. That doesn't count because the Father attempted to manipulate the success of the son in med school and he succeeded.
Lunar, in your example where the people gambling at the casino expect to fail (loose money) , how is that an example of someone trying to fail? If I wanted to loose money at gambling it away, I would just keep gambling the whole of what I had until I lost one play. It wouldn't take very long.
Expecting to loose/fail because the odds are against you isn't the same as trying to fail. The gambler is trying to win/succeed and just is realistic about the odds of failing. Only the one trying to win succeed may against the odds.
The gambler trying to fail/loose it all/ can guarantee he will.
Well, Some insight came from this by using reverse engineering. This is just to the general. I know you are an accomplished person Lunar.
If the way to insure failure is to withdraw all effort until the failure is complete, then a formula for success would be to apply full efforts until the goal is achieved.
That's where and why most people fail when they wish to succeed at something. They put in a marginal effort or give up to easily or too soon and blame the failure on bad luck.
I usually ask myself when I see people do that how much they really wanted it in the first place. I don't think they did.
I think a lot of what people fail at is done in out of meeting the expectations of others.
Watch people. When they themselves REALLY want something, they put on the blinders, aim them to the target goal and turn into a mighty bulldozer and hit put the pedal to the metal.
When you watch types who spin their wheels and really never accomplish much, they don't seem clear on exactly what it is they want or why they want it.
Ask them and watch the confusion and self doubt talk pour out of their mouths.
Ask an accomplished successful person what they want and why they want it and they will be very clear and concise with an intimate understanding of themselves related to the goal.
I think its the difference between people who don't know who they are and those who do.
If you don't know who you are , then you don't know what you are made out of. If you don't know what materials you even have to work with, how can you make anything of them?
If you want to know who you are and what you are made of, just reflect back to your inner life when you were a child. What were your your private thoughts that you believed in about who and what you were that you didn't share.
Remember back to times when labels were put on you that you disagreed with. Why did you? Reaffirm the person you know yourself to be and act from it. Fuck what others say.
What did play pretend yourself to be the most. Adapt it to to your adult life and keep playing pretend as if it were real. Even adults are playing roles. They just are using the real props and costumes and stage and often an acting class is involved (schooling for the role).
Remember back to how you negotiated your way out of tough situations. That's your personal strength skill, use it. Even if it was that you were just weak and found it more easy to just to give in to the other side, that can be turned into a strength.
Make the other side made up of those who wish for your success and then, do what you do best and give into them. They'll take you there. You can't loose.
I like this topic!
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
There is only one success, one winner.
I think that depends on the definition of success and where one finds it. Failure to get first place is failure in the conventional sense, limited to the context of the first place position, but yet obtaining second place can be viewed as a success. Simply finishing the race altogether can be a success.
Hell, you're right, entirely within the viewpoint of first place, only one person can obtain that category, but yet life itself is far too dynamic and far-reaching to focus one's endeavors entirely through that one context. It simply comes down to the mind and what definitions and roles it wishes to apply to itself and to strive for (all of which are illusion, naturally  ), but in a more encompassing view, simply living life itself is a success. "Success/failure" is convention and nothing more, and the more limited perspective one takes on its convention, the more limited of an experience and the less awareness that person will have; which, of course, does nothing but limit that person's ability to find success in those conventional areas that they wish to apply themselves.  
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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When you watch types who spin their wheels and really never accomplish much, they don't seem clear on exactly what it is they want or why they want it.
Ask them and watch the confusion and self doubt talk pour out of their mouths.
Ask an accomplished successful person what they want and why they want it and they will be very clear and concise with an intimate understanding of themselves related to the goal.
Goal setting is extremely important to success, and the goals need to be written and with realistic time frames monitored regularly.
The casino example still applies. There are two potential games that can be beaten, one is poker and the other is blackjack. The casino feels better when you take other players money so they watch card counters in blackjack and can ban them from the casino if they want to.
The successful poker player has studied the odds (including implied odds), knows what situations dictate what type of play, and is good at reading other players. It is a discipline, a study, yet an art form and a lot of luck thrown in for good measure and true character building. Successful poker players make a lot of money.
The casual gambler dumping money in the slot machines can be assured failure over time, and the more time the more failure.
The real key with all of this is that people who fail to plan are "planning" to fail. Those hoping for that "one big jackpot" in the face of negative odds (anyone buying a lottery ticket) are the saddest of all. That truly is many people's "get rich" plan. You know the B.S. type "well when I win the lottery I will quit my job, finally travel, buy a house instead of living with mom, etc.
Having said all of this, there have been many many successful people who have failed repeatedly, gone broke numerous times, had doors slammed in their faces over and over. The difference is that some people can get up, dust themselves off, and jump back on that horse that just threw them.
Here's an example. Bull riders. Some bulls have NEVER been ridden, yet these guys keep trying. They get stomped on, kicked, smacked in the head by the bulls head, broken bones, arms and shoulders yanked out of socket, and keep coming back for more...
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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I think that depends on the definition of success and where one finds it. Failure to get first place is failure in the conventional sense, limited to the context of the first place position, but yet obtaining second place can be viewed as a success. Simply finishing the race altogether can be a success.
The truly successful will give up their well rounded perspective and go up that narrow vertical trail to the top of Mt. Everest. They are so driven that even the very real possibility of death does not deter them.
If second place is OK, what about 5th out of 9? Still better than average. Should last place be OK if you get beat in a walking race by someone with one leg and you have two healthy legs?
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (08/20/05 01:36 PM)
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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 Re: Failure/Success [Re: daimyo]
#4559280 - 08/20/05 01:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you attempt to fail at something, but instead succeed, which have you done?
You have succeeded in something and failed at your attempt to fail at something.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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So the kid decides to fail med school "while pretending to be trying".
When I was in college, we had several students jump off the bridge and down 100 ft. onto the rocks below because they couldn't deal with the "failure" of not getting the grades they needed to get into med school etc. The ultimate example of "self-sabatoge".
As for your hypothetical example, it is deceitful and wimpy not to stand up to dad but at least the guy didn't kill himself. I would view both the student and the dad to have "failed" at least in the context of a failed relationship.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (08/20/05 02:17 PM)
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