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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Self Sabotage
    #4558813 - 08/20/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Who's got what to say on their understanding of it? Why do you think people sabotage themselves in their efforts? What are some ideas for overcoming such a pattern?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4558865 - 08/20/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Awareness of such a pattern is the initiation of overcoming such a pattern. I doubt that such a pattern would exist within a mind if their was a conscious realization and a deep understanding of the nature of such a pattern. Conflicting viewpoints and motivations within a mind is what is to be held accountable for such a pattern.

If a person has a whole-hearted desire to be a professional musician, there are aspects of that role that need to be fufilled in order for such a role to be obtained. A goal has steps that need to be followed and a destination to be arrived at. If a person holds desire to fufill a role or to meet a goal, but yet does not act on them, perhaps there are other desired roles that they also divert focus and attention towards, which could either limit the effort put into the first goal, or perhaps the goals conflict. Perhaps the person does not realize all of the necessary requirements for meeting the goal or getting where they wish to be. Perhaps they do but other aspects of their self take emotional issues with fufilling them, perhaps these aspects see those steps as being boring, or too much work, or perhaps they are afraid of failure, or of what others might think, etc. etc. etc. A person could have a perfect understanding of what needs to be done and still not "walk the walk" due to self issues. A fragmented, illusory sense of self will not accomplish much as it will be in conflict with itself and will not properly conduct awareness and understanding.

There are obviously a near infinite amount of ways that such a pattern can take form, but the fundamental point is that a mind that has the proper desire and the necessary understanding will not face such problems.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4558905 - 08/20/05 11:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The first thing you said is important. You can't even begin to solve a problem until you can see it there. Einstein agreed-


"You cannot solve a problem on the same level that it was created.
You must rise above it to the next level." --Albert Einstein

Nice insights on the path to self sabotage.

I'd like to keep hearing more and more perspectives on this and see where it goes or if a new perspective comes out I haven't viewed before on it.

So many people do it, sabotage themselves it is. Awareness of how the pattern sets and how to learn from it and break it should be a mandatory course in highschool.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4558933 - 08/20/05 12:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Also, I don't think it is possible to "sabotage the self". The summation of what encompasses the person is the self. I think it is only possible for aspects of the sense of self to sabotage (intentionally or not) other aspects of the sense of self.

For example, if I want to be a lawyer, and am enrolled in school for it, but yet I do not study and instead drink and smack some asses around, listening to disco all the while, all of the facets of that experience and of all my motivations and actions total to be "the self". There isn't one true path defined by the self that is sabotaged. Various possibilities and intended paths are crossing and the actions taken as a result reveal the "true path" that the self wishes to undertake (regardless of whether or not this is because of ignorance, preference, etc.).

Simply a point concerning semantics, I think, but yet I think it is interesting to note, even if it was not properly expressed. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4558960 - 08/20/05 12:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly! One aspect of the self, sabotages the goals of another aspect of the self that wants them.

Obviously, one aspect is predominant and wins. Ever notice that in the situation you described, the person sits around wondering why they haven't become a Lawyer yet.

Notice how the behavior of the predominant aspect goes unrecognized as the saboteur. We've all seen others or ourselves put the blame of the saboteur out there and not on a predominant self aspect.

It's like the Einstein quote. You have to rise above the situation before you can see it and begin to fix it it seems.

Anyone have anything to say on how we go about rising above something to get a better view of it?

It seems it just happens naturally or some event transpires that results in your giving yourself a lift up.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4558977 - 08/20/05 12:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

do you self sabotage jiggy?


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youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4559018 - 08/20/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
do you self sabotage jiggy?




She's more adept at sabotaging others. :wink:


:lol: :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4559045 - 08/20/05 12:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ha Ha ha FW.

Oh sure Joo!

I catch myself doing it all of the time. Usually, I catch it when I am in an upliftment mode. I've seen everyone I know do it regarding something, even with things like exercising more or saving money.

I'm intrigued as to why you can be doing it with something for so long and not even notice.

The mind is interesting, how it hides aspects form others.

I like exploring this topic.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4559333 - 08/20/05 01:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Usually, I catch it when I am in an upliftment mode.


That's because you (and me and others) aren't 100% comfortable with success.  You have been taught it's egotistical to flaunt success, you don't deserve it, and besides what a pain to have to maintain all that success anyway.  So, when you are "in an upliftment mode" (nicely put BTW) is the perfect time to bring in a little "grounding".

The other reason you may sabatoge at this time has to do with others.  There will be people jealous of your success  :blush: who would just love to discourage you.  In fact, the discouragement fraternity is everywhere.

So, to maintain success is not easy.  To fail is easy plus a lot of people love to gripe about their failures.  Misery loves company.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4559380 - 08/20/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If a person has a whole-hearted desire to be a professional musician

Why not a Major League baseball player?  Why not the President? 

Goals are only good if they are realistic.  I know you are probably damn good on the guitar, for instance.  You may be in a band, and perhaps you and the band can eke out some kind of existence playing for money.  The reason there are so many starving musicians is that there are so many musicians in the first place.  Plus, the one's that "make it" in Hollywood etc. have PR men, agents, or are the brother-in-law of the record company president.

Did you like the way I discouraged you?  Probably not.

Seriously, though you should be the best guitar player you can, have fun with it, play gigs for free or for money, meet a lot of people.  :cool:


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (08/20/05 02:06 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4559404 - 08/20/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

People often sabotage themselves when they acheive a level of success that puts them out of their comfort zone.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4559482 - 08/20/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

People often sabotage themselves when they acheive a level of success that puts them out of their comfort zone.

Excellent point. To not self-sabotage therefore means one must expand one's comfort zone. Goal setting can help. Becoming comfortable with previously uncomfortable situations takes attention, practice and dedication.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (08/20/05 02:29 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4559561 - 08/20/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I concur.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4559979 - 08/20/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I'm intrigued as to why you can be doing it with something for so long and not even notice.

The mind is interesting, how it hides aspects form others.

I like exploring this topic.




It's a real coincidence you posted a thread like this cause I self-sabotaged this week about as worsely as I have for over two years. I sent 28 emails to a friend who I forgave recently. In many of these emails I cut him apart, using the cruellest things I could think of to say to him, and I repealed my forgiveness and I cursed the day I met him. He was my last friend from real life and now I have none and I feel worse now than I did a week ago when I had forgiven him. It's not really important what he did, he actually flaked out on finding a place with me, he flakes out all the time. Anyway, that was a great example of self sabotage, cursing out my last friend and I don't know what possessed me to repeal my forgiveness...but one thing is I felt like "hey, joo, come on, you gotta start sticking up for yourself, it's not too late to repeal your forgiveness, it's not too late to stand up for yourself and tell this mean game-playin fool off again." and i did that, but it feels like it's worse now that i should have stuck with the forgiveness. i feel really mixed up and i don't know who's a friend and who's not and who's messing with me on purpose and where it's all in my head and where it's real so for me this kind of self sabotage comes from doubt and confusion, like what Hamlet goes through in acts I-IV.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4560971 - 08/20/05 09:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Because you said this guy has been unreliable in the past, I don't see it much as being a case of self sabotage as I do one of your following your gut instincts that this guy will make a lousy room mate and probably stiff you on his share of the rent and bills here and there.

Sure, you impositioned yourself to have to find someone else and that will take more time, but if you play your cards right, it may pay off big for you in the long run. Try not to look at the short term damage and instead look at the long term better potential that is now possible.

In the case of a room mate search, maybe its best just to look for an ideal room mate and not a friend to live with. That's what I would do.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/20/05 09:55 PM)

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4561046 - 08/20/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

From the Great Maslow himself:

THE JONAH COMPLEX

I would like to turn to one of the many reasons for what Angyal (4) called the evasion of growth. We have, all of us, an impulse to improve ourselves, an impulse toward actualizing more of our potentialities, toward self-actualization, or full humanness or human fulfillment, or whatever term you like. Granted this, then what holds us up? what blocks us?
One such defense against growth that I'd like to speak about specially because it hasn't been noticed much-I shall call the Jonah Complex.

In my own notes I had at first labeled this defense the "Fear of one;s own greatness" or the "evasion of one's destiny" or the "running away from one's own best talents." I had wanted to stress as bluntly and sharply as I could the non-Freudian point that we fear our best as well as our worst, even though in different ways.. It is certainly possible for most of us to be greater than we are in actuality. We all have unused potentialities or not fully developed ones. It is certainly true that many of us evade our constitutionally suggested vocations (call, destiny, task in life, mission). So often we run away from the responsibilities dictated (or rather suggested) by nature, by fate, even sometimes by accident, just as Jonah tried-in vain-to run away from his fate.
We fear our highest possibilities (as well as our lowest ones). We are generally afraid to become that which we can glimpse in our most perfect moments, under the most perfect conditions, under conditions of greatest courage. We enjoy and even thrill to the godlike possibilities we see in ourselves in such peak moments. And yet we simultaneously shiver with weakness, awe, and fear before these very same possibilities.


I have found it easy enough to demonstrate this to my students simply by asking, "Which of you in this class hopes to write the great American novel, or to be a Senator, or Governor, or President? Who wants to be Secretary-general of the United Nations? Or a great composer? Who aspires to be a saint, like Schwietzer, perhaps? Who among you will be a great leader?" Generally everybody starts giggling, blushing, and squirming until I ask, "If not you, then who else?" Which of course is the truth. And in this same way, as I push my graduate students toward these higher levels of aspiration, I'll say "What great book are you now secretly planning to write?" And then they often blush and stammer and push me off in some way. But why should I not ask that question? Who else will write the books on psychology except psychologists? So I can ask, "Do you not plan to be a psychologist?" "Well, yes." "Are you in training to be a mute or an inactive psychologist? What's the advantage of that? That's not a good path to self-actualization. No, you must want to be the first-class psychologist, meaning the best, the very best you are capable of becoming. If you deliberately plan to be less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you''ll be deeply unhappy for the rest of your life. You will be evading your own capacities, your own possibilities."

Not only are we ambivalent about our own highest possibilities, we are also in a perpetual and I think universal-perhaps even necessary-conflict and ambivalence over these same highest possibilities in other people, and in human nature in general. Certainly we love and admire good men, saints honest, virtuous, clean men. But could anybody who has looked into the depths of human nature fail to be aware of our mixed and often hostile feelings toward saintly men? Or toward very beautiful women or men? Or toward great creators? Or toward our intellectual geniuses? I t is not necessary to be a psychotherapist to see this phenomenon-let us call it "counter-valuing." Any reading of history will turn up plenty of examples, or perhaps even I could say that any such historical search might fail to turn up a single exception throughout the whole history of mankind. We surely love and admire all the persons who have incarnated the true, the good, the beautiful, the just, the perfect, the ultimately successful. And yet they also make us uneasy, anxious, confused, perhaps a little jealous or envious, a little inferior, clumsy. They usually make us lose our aplomb, our self-possession, and self-regard.

Here we have a first clue. My impression so far is that the greatest people, simply by their presence and by being what they are, make us feel aware of our lesser worthy, whether or not they intend to. If this is an unconscious effect, and we are no aware of why we feel stupid or ugly or inferior whenever such a person turns up, we are apt to respond with projection, i.e., we react as if he were trying to make us feel inferior, as if we were the target. Hostility is then an understandable consequence. It looks to me so far as if conscious awareness tends to fend off this hostility. That is, if you are willing to attempt self-awareness and self-analysis of your own counter-valuing, i.e., of your unconscious fear and hatred of true, good, beautiful, etc., people, you will very likely be less than nasty to them. And I am willing also to extrapolate to the guess that if you can learn to love these qualities in yourself in a less frightened way.

Allied to this dynamic is the awe before the highest, of which Rudolf Otto, has given us the classical description. Putting this together with Eliade's insights into sacralization and desacralization, we become more aware of the universality of the fear of direct confrontation with a God or with the godlike. In some religions death is the inevitable consequence. Most preliterate societies also have places or objects that are taboo because they are too sacred and therefore too dangerous. In my last chapter of my Psychology and Science, I have also given examples mostly from science and medicine of desacralizing and resacralizing and tried to explain the psycho=dynamics of these processes. Mostly it comes down to awe before the highest and best. ( I want to stress that this awe is intrinsic, justified, right, suitable, rather than some sickness or failing to get "cured of.")

But here again my feeling is that this awe and fear need not to be negative alone, something to make us flee or cower. These are also desirable and enjoyable feelings capable of bringing us even to the point of highest ecstasy and rapture. Conscious awareness, insight, and "working through," a la Freud, is the answer here too I think. This is the best path I know to the acceptance of our highest powers, and whatever elements of greatness or goodness or wisdom or talent we may have concealed or evaded.

A helpful sidelight for me has come from trying to understand why peak experiences are ordinarily transient and brief. The answer becomes clearer and clearer. We are just not strong enough to endure more! It is just too shaking and wearing. So often people in such ecstatic moments say, "It's too much," or "I can't stand it," "I could die." And as I get the descriptions, I sometimes feel Yes, they could die. Delirious happiness cannot be borne for long. Our organisms are just too weak to endure hour-long sexual orgasms, for example.

The word "peak experience" is more appropriate than I realized at first. The acute emotion must be climactic and momentary and it must give way to nonecstatic serenity, calmer happiness, and the intrinsic pleasures of clear, contemplative cognition of the highest goods. The climactic emotion cannot endure, but B-cognition can.

Doesn't this help us to understand our Jonah Complex? It is partly a justified fear of being torn apart, of losing control, of being shattered, and disintegrated, even of being killed by the experience. Great emotions after all can in fact overwhelm us. The fear of surrendering to such an experience, a fear which reminds us of all the parallel fears found in sexual frigidity, can be understood better I think through familiarity with the literature of psychodynamics'''' and depth psychology, and of the psychophysiology and medical psychomatics of emotion.

There is still another psychological process that I have run across in my explorations of failure to actualize the self. This evasion of growth can be also set in motion by fear of paranoia. Of course this has been said in more universal ways. Promethean and Faustian legends are found in practically any culture. For instance, the Greeks called it the fear of hubris. It has been called "sinful pride," which is of course a permanent human problem. The person who says to himself, "Yes, I will be a great philosopher and I will rewrite Plato and do it better," must sooner or later be struck dumb by his grandiosity, his arrogance. And especially in his weaker moments, will say to himself, "Who? Me?" and think of it as a crazy fantasy or even fear it as a delusion. He compares his knowledge of his inner private self, with all its weakness, vacillation, and shortcomings, and with the bright, shining, perfect, and faultless image he has of Plato. Then, of course, he'll feel presumptuous and grandiose. (What he doesn't realize is that Plato, introspecting, must have felt just the same way about himself, but went ahead anyway, overriding his doubts about himself.)

For some people this evasion of one's growth, setting low levels of aspiration, the fear of doing what one is capable of doing, voluntary self-crippling, pseudostupidity, mock-humility are in fact defenses against grandiosity, arrogance, sinful pride, hubris. There are people who cannot manage that graceful integration between the humility and the pride which is absolutely necessary for creative work. To invent or create you must have the "arrogance of creativeness" which so many investigators have noticed. But, of course, if you have only the arrogance without the humility, then you are in fact paranoid. You must be aware not only of the godlike possibilities within, but also for the existential human limitations. You must be able simultaneously to laugh at yourself and at all human pretensions. If you can be amused by the worm trying to be a God, then in fact you may be able to go on trying and being arrogant without fearing paranoia or bringing down upon yourself the evil eye. This is a good technique.

May I mention one or more such technique that I saw at its best in Aldous Huxley, who was certainly a great man in the sense I've been discussing, one who was able to accept his talents and use them to the full. He managed it by perpetually marveling at how interesting and fascinating everything was, by wondering like a youngster at how miraculous things are, by saying frequently, "Extraordinary! Extraordinary!" He could look out at the world with wide eyes, with unabashed innocence, awe, and fascination, which is kind of admission of smallness, a form of humility, and then proceed calmly and unafraid to the great tasks he set for himself.

Finally, I refer you to a paper of mine relevant in itself, but also as the first in a possible series. Its title, "The need to know and the fear of knowing," illustrates well what I want to say about each of the intrinsic or ultimate values that I've called Values of Being (B-Values). I am trying to say that these ultimate values, which I think are also the highest needs, or metaneeds, as I call them in Chapter 23, fall, like all basic needs, into the basic Freudian schema of impulse and defense against that impulse. Thus it is certainly demonstrable that we need the truth and love it and seek it. And yet it is just as easy to demonstrate that we are also simultaneously afraid to know the truth.

I predict that we will find a similar dialectic for each oof the intrinsic Values of Being, and I have vaguely thought of doing series of papers on e.g., "The love of beauty and our uneasiness with it." "Our love of the good man and our irritation with him." "Our search for excellence and our tendency to destroy it," etc., etc. Of course, these counter-values are stronger in neurotic people but it looks to me as if all of us must make our peace with these man impulses within ourselves. And my impression so far is that the best way to do this is to transmute envy, jealousy, presentiment, and nastiness into humble admiration, gratitude, appreciation, adoration, and even worship via conscious insight and working through. This is the road to feeling small and weak and unworthy and accepting these feelings instead of needing to protect a spuriously high self-esteem by striking out.
And again I think it is obvious that understanding of this basic existential problem should help us to embrace the B-Values not only in others, but also in ourselves, thereby helping to resolve the Jonah Complex.




So in summary, the Jonah Complex is basically an evasion of growth and fulfilling one's best talents; fear of one's greatness.

?Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.? -- Nelson Mandella

We fear what we glimpse about ourselves in our highest moments (also in our lowest moments).
It is easy to be ambivalent about GREATNESS in ourselves and/or in others, such as exceptionally beautiful people, great creators, geniuses, lucky people, saintly people, and so on. So, we often try to diminish greatness in others (and even in ourselves, as in the ?fear of success?).

What drives these Jonah Complexes?

-- fear of the sense of responsibility that often attends recognizing our own greatness, talents, potentials, etc.

-- fear that an extraordinary life would be out of the ordinary, and hence not acceptable to others (but what is the real value of such acceptance?)

For instance, fear of seeming arrogant, self-centered, etc.

"Arrogance is always counterbalanced by a realistic perception of one?s human limitation - a kind of humility." -Maslow

-- greatness often seems inherently dangerous ? maybe too powerful, too intense, too overwhelming (like looking into the sun).

The Jonah Complex is partly about fear of losing control, annihilation, disintegration (of course, surrendering to one?s own greatness does annihilate one?s previous way of being).

Solving the Jonah complex involves:

-- becoming aware of one?s counter-valuing as a step toward starting to enjoy others? greatness, which can lead to hence becoming more comfortable with one?s own.

-- embracing the B-values [Being-cognition values]: Truth, goodness, beauty, wholeness dichotomy-transcendence, aliveness, uniqueness, perfection, completion, justice, simplicity, richness, effortlessness, playfulness, self-sufficiency.

Which also means not just denying our Jonah complexes (since they are part of us as well), but grasping our positive potentials in spite of our tendency to evade them.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4561107 - 08/20/05 10:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

AWESOME read to shed light on this topic! Thank you Skorp for sharing it here.

earlier this evening I caught a Seinfeld episode that touched on the part where others can attempt to contribute to self sabotage.

Jerry was at a tennis match with George and became so enraptured by the "beautiful lines woman" he declared he was going to walk right up to her and ask her for a date.

George said to him, "Your not that kind of guy Jerry. You can't do that." Then Jerry said, "Well, I am going to become that guy who can do that." George said, "You can't. You'll be in a higher league then me then. Will you take me with you?" Jerry said, "No!". :lol:

Unlike Jerry, I'll take my friends with me wherever I go. More then not, they are not ready to leave their old comfort zones. I usually jump at chances for change.

It's weird and disturbing to consider that none of us are living up to our greater potential. When I look back, I see some bailed on opportunities as trade offs for a comfort of sorts. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Changing comfort zones is difficult to do unless you have a lot of support and encouragement through the adjustment.

This post has had me reviewing the people in my life and who are the Georges and who are the cheerleaders.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4561136 - 08/20/05 10:43 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I do it to myself all the time for sure. I often wonder however, how much I do it beyond my knowledge. Ive often assessed my actions as self defeating and wondered post tense whether or not it was intentional on some level. Lets hope its never that way.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LittleBen]
    #4561175 - 08/20/05 11:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Did you read the article Skorp posted. It's long but insightful on this topic. It's all good and I especially like to be reminded of how its not always that we are afraid of failure but often afraid of success and the new responsibilities and changes it will bring, like Lunar and Hue mentioned.

Friends and family play an influencing role too and I like how the article touched on that.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LittleBen]
    #4561998 - 08/21/05 08:58 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ive often assessed my actions as self defeating and wondered post tense whether or not it was intentional on some level. Lets hope its never that way.

Hope won't change the likely reality that your subconscious is a mole. Not a skin defect mole, a spy type double crossing lying conniving type of mole. One that smiles to your face yet stabs you in the back.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4562027 - 08/21/05 09:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

What a strange view of the subconscious. My experience is very different. How did you come to this conclusion? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Icelander]
    #4562066 - 08/21/05 09:40 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with LunarEclipse. Of course his way of putting it is dramatic. If we are not conditioned to acheiving success in a certain area it is possible that we will self abort our goals in favor of comfort. This is a subconcious decision. The subconcious tends towards the known and the comfortable. To transcend the limits of the subconcious determination or conditioning are needed.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4562077 - 08/21/05 09:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Oh I get it. I think of subconscious and unconscious as different things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Icelander]
    #4562078 - 08/21/05 09:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'm not saying the subconscious is always a "bad guy" but let's face it, by definition he's a bit mysterious, maybe a bit dangerous, and it's not clear he's on the same page as your conscious.

He's like the CIA, you hope they are looking out for our interests, but how do you REALLY know? (Hence the mole analogy).


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4562127 - 08/21/05 10:08 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Why not a Major League baseball player?  Why not the President?




Why not? Each role has requirements, and as long as their aren't any limitations that are beyond the control of the person (physical disabilities, citizenship issues, etc.) then a truly dedicated and conscious individual who is absolutely devoted to fufilling that role will be able to play the game and possibly attain it. 

Quote:


Goals are only good if they are realistic.  I know you are probably damn good on the guitar, for instance.




:evil:

Quote:


The reason there are so many starving musicians is that there are so many musicians in the first place.  Plus, the one's that "make it" in Hollywood etc. have PR men, agents, or are the brother-in-law of the record company president.




I have an understanding of the facets that are responsible and necessary for the path which I have outlined and have already begun following. I'm aware of the various realities of such a path and feel confident that I am able to succeed where many other individuals not capable enough have failed. :wink:

Quote:


Did you like the way I discouraged you?  Probably not.




I wasn't discouraged, but I did appreciate and liked the way that you expressed yourself. It is always important for me to realize the truths of my anticipated endeavors. Honestly, you probably motivated me more than anything else. :thumbup: :wink:

The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become (the present tense, "be", of course, is all that actually exists :wink:) whatever. :smirk:

I'd continue with that general flow to satisfy jiggy's urges (;)), but yet I am pressed for time! :headbang:

Quote:


Seriously, though you should be the best guitar player you can, have fun with it, play gigs for free or for money, meet a lot of people.  :cool:




Can't argue with that! :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4562443 - 08/21/05 11:51 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

feel confident that I am able to succeed where many other individuals not capable enough have failed.


Being capable is fine, but being persistent is really what pays off.  Watch the movie Wall Street and Bud Fox (played by Charlie Sheen) to get the idea.  Well on second thought he ended up in jail for insider trading... :confused: OK the part about the birthday cigars, for instance.  Or doing "whatever it takes" to get the job done.  You may not like to be a self-promoting, ass kissing suck up.  Most people don't.  But, to get that record contract may require just such behavior, and on a persistent basis. 

The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become

If you are not ALREADY the greatest rock star on earth in your mind and in time the world will agree, frankly you are unlikely to become the greatest rock star in the world by transforming or flowing into it.  You would have already told anyone willing to listen about that fact from the age of 10 or whenever it was your guitar playing truly made a believer out of you.  I find it interesting and a little more than a coincidence that the world's greatest (figure skater, boxer, Wimbledon champion, etc. etc.) made a conscious decision to be the best at an early age.  They never wavered from that belief in spite of sounding a little silly saying "I will be the next heavyweight champion of the World" at age 12.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4562541 - 08/21/05 12:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Hah, well hope isnt all I put into it. But I really think just being aware of the danger reduces the risk dramatically. I would be more worried about security leaks if I hadnt been so suspicious. The place I notice it the most, funny enough, is video games. In H2 I beat everyone I know by the same margins even though they are at different skill levels. I must be holding back. (come see me on xbc)


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LittleBen]
    #4566273 - 08/22/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
If you are not ALREADY the greatest rock star on earth in your mind and in time the world will agree, frankly you are unlikely to become the greatest rock star in the world by transforming or flowing into it.




I doubt this. Positive affirmations are useful when someone is transforming their motivations and their self towards a single-pointed goal, but it is not necessary for the transformation into a role. It isn't necessary to motivate oneself in such a manner to make it happen. One can accomplish that simply by undergoing the changes and the actions that are necessary, without delusional reassurance.

Quote:


I find it interesting and a little more than a coincidence that the world's greatest (figure skater, boxer, Wimbledon champion, etc. etc.) made a conscious decision to be the best at an early age.  They never wavered from that belief in spite of sounding a little silly saying "I will be the next heavyweight champion of the World" at age 12.




Once again, a steadfast, unwavering desire to be the best of something certainly is going to be a powerful tool for actually being the "best", but it isn't the only tool to accomplish such by. I don't wake up every night and tell myself that "I am the fastest, most valued stocker at work" in order to actually be the fastest, most valued stocker; I simply perform in a manner that fufills that role, and, therefore, I naturally am (which has been revealed to me through several external sources, of course :wink:).

Don't confuse the catalyst with the actual process that needs to be worked through in order for someone to attain the result of their path. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566415 - 08/22/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Contemplating this topic more as I have since it came up, I also realize that self sabotage has a constructive use and can serve us.

Like with anything, it's relative to the perspective.

Being an idealistic dreamer who loves to realize more of what i can do and make dreams become realities, i tend to put way to much on my plate. I want to do it all, have it all and be it all. I can tend to overwhelm myself and then, end up doing nothing.

Looking back, I have noticed that in some cases where I am sabotaging goals or desires, it seems to the subconscious selecting for me what to eliminate so I have more time and energy to focus on what would be best for me and get something done.

If I come up with 20 ideas and have only time and means to accomplish 2 of them, by my subconsciousness sabotaging 18 of them, i can get the 2 done.

If it didn't do that for me, I would have no focus with my efforts scattered and misplaced and accomplish less then I do with it , it seems.

From hindsight, I also noticed that it has been doing a good job of selecting what to sabotage and what to leave alone to fulfill itself.

I wanted to add this perspective because nothing is one sided and ultimately, I believe the negative side doesn't even exist other then to serve as an illusive back drop for the positive to be realized by the contrast.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566476 - 08/22/05 12:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Self Sabotage is just a mistake, a natural mistake.
like growing pains
it is not a pathology unless someone becomes delighted with the pain of it


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4566502 - 08/22/05 01:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Who says it has to be painful? What if you pull a self sabotage and instead of feeling pain and regret or loss, you decide to view it as something that worked in your favor and it was not meant to be and that the space that was freed up to be used in better aligned with your higher purpose and intentions in life?

In other words, what if the ego sets a goal and intention and it runs contrary to the goal and intention of the higher self. Can you see where it's plausible that the higher self through the subconscious would sabotage the vain efforts and goals in guiding service to you?

We don't typically witness such a process and so can only think we fucked up. Maybe another aspect of our self is just running interference to help us achieve higher goals.

Take what Hue said about shifting from a comfort zone. When we naturally grow, we naturally shift zones and are not even aware of it. If a zone shift feels forced, then, an ego manipulation is possibly taking place and thats not natural.

I'm seeing this view of it tis morning and it's making sense to me.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4566755 - 08/22/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

In Wiccan (and other) spellwork, it is common to include a line such as "This or something better" or "For the greatest good of my self and all those concerned." This is to express the belief that we may not always know what is best for us and others. Though our wish for something in particular to occur is made without malice, we simply do not have the perspective to understand the far-reaching effects.

Perhaps what appears to be self-sabotage could be a counter-action on the part of our "higher" self to avert potential consequences we cannot fully perceive?

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: Veritas]
    #4566805 - 08/22/05 02:52 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for understandng and elucidating so well the different view I wanted to share on this that I started seeing and considering.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4567522 - 08/22/05 06:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I don't wake up every night and tell myself that "I am the fastest, most valued stocker at work" in order to actually be the fastest, most valued stocker

Oh sure, you were Born To Stock.  Meanwhile, I had to work 32 years to develop the speed and skills required to be a fast and valued stocker. 

Sadly, at age 52 my peak stocking days are over, and my hump back is making reaching the top shelves more difficult.  Worse, the Carpal Tunnel pain in both wrists is so bad that I am forced to wear braces not only at work but also at home and while sleeping.  It's worth it though as just last year I was voted "Fastest and Most Valued Stocker" in the Masters Division.  :thumbup:


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4569668 - 08/23/05 07:32 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It was simply an example, and I don't know exactly where you are going with it. Are you saying that being successful at some role is going to destroy you? I'm not sure if you are saying that, or if you are simply belittling my specific example, which I had chosen as it pertains to me and a role in which I already have experience fufilling. What you describe sounds more like misuse of one's physical body over time, which doesn't have to be something involved in the specific example I stated. :wink:

The point was more involving being aware of exactly what one is doing and applying oneself in such a manner to meet a requirement set by oneself or to fufill a role. The point was that simple, mental affirmations and convincing oneself that "one is the champion, the best" in itself doesn't amount to anything but delusion. It is simply one possible state of mind that can serve as a catalyst to the application of oneself and one's abilities to fufill a role. The point was made because you claimed that such a state of mind is necessary for such.

So do I need to absolutely convince myself that "I am the greatest rockstar ever" in order to actually assume such an imaginary image? Or can I simply devote myself, my energies, my awareness, and my focus into all endeavors that are necessary and that play a part in the goal that I have outlined for myself? Will I apply myself better in an aware state of mind that is centered in reality and will flow with what is faced, or in a state of mind wherein I am delusional and self-centered? You have already implied that fufilling such a role is possible, so are you just doubting my own ambition, or my understanding of all the implications and the necessities of such a role?

If I told you that I am going to be the best rock star ever, then would you believe me? :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4569912 - 08/23/05 08:55 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:rimshot: :hairmetal: :jamming: :gimmebass: :money: YES!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4569929 - 08/23/05 09:01 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If I told you that I am going to be the best rock star ever, then would you believe me?


If you haven't convinced yourself yet, what makes you think you can convince me?  :smirk:

The point you keep disagreeing with that I see as the key point is that people with strong belief in themselves and with a specific yet very difficult goal often succeed. 

In your case, I doubt you dreamed of being the fastest stocker as a kid.  I certainly wasn't trying to belittle your efforts as any job worth doing is worth doing well.  It pays the bills and gives you time to pursue your guitar etc. that's great.  You are fast and they value you, perhaps you want to stay but can you see yourself stocking for the next 32 years?  Probably not. 

Part of self-sabotage by default is that most people never really pursue that which they love.  The Path With Heart.  They deny themselves the opportunity to do what they love because they don't have the self-confidence needed to follow that path.  They know that if they try and fail on that path it will be doubly hard to take the failure.  So, they pursue more practical (better paying and easier to get) type jobs and careers.  The kind of job you hate but are good at.  The kind that leads to stress, depression, and substance abuse evenings and weekends.


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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4570329 - 08/23/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
If you haven't convinced yourself yet, what makes you think you can convince me?  :smirk:




Oh, I'm fully convinced, I just don't let on much about me. :wink: :headbang:

Quote:


The point you keep disagreeing with that I see as the key point is that people with strong belief in themselves and with a specific yet very difficult goal often succeed.




I'm not disagreeing with this point at all. :wink:

For instance, I hold a strong belief that I am capable enough and that I am also willing enough to take on any aspect of what is necessary for me to fufill whatever role I aim towards, and not only that, but that I also will act upon that.

The point that I was conflicting with is that of someone having to affirm "I am the greatest _ " and that it is the only way that one can succeed with difficult goals. Also, the thoughts concerning my statement "The most notable aspect of fufilling a role is allowing oneself to transform into that role. It requires a very flowing, willing, aware personality to be able to do such. It isn't a question of "who I am", it's a matter of allowing oneself to become..." - that whole general concept.

That quotation of mine was speaking of not holding any illusory sense of self and allowing it to conflict with one's goals or the ways in which one must change to meet them. It wasn't an expression of not believing in oneself and one's abilities, it was an expression of being completely open to changing oneself in manners that allow for one to follow through on their goals. For example, if I have insecurities about standing in front of a crowd, whose attention is focused solely on me, and that I must perform, I am going to not hold onto any aspect of myself that is responsible for those insecurities, and I am going to directly address it and open myself to changing to meet those needs. :wink:

Quote:


In your case, I doubt you dreamed of being the fastest stocker as a kid.  I certainly wasn't trying to belittle your efforts as any job worth doing is worth doing well.  It pays the bills and gives you time to pursue your guitar etc. that's great.  You are fast and they value you, perhaps you want to stay but can you see yourself stocking for the next 32 years?  Probably not.




Definitely not. :thumbdown:

I would quit right now if I had means by which to support myself and my situation. A conclusion I long ago reached is that I cannot always arrange situations to meet my own preferences and addictions, and that the reality is that I am employed in such a manner, for the time being. I am under an agreement to meet certain expectations in exchange for currency. Therefore, while I am there, I am going to focus on exactly what I need to do, and that also I will take steps towards exceeding expectations and striving to better myself. Holding images of myself and what I like to do, what isn't preferential, etc., will only seperate myself from the experience and knowledge that anything can present. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.! :lol:

Quote:


Part of self-sabotage by default is that most people never really pursue that which they love.  The Path With Heart.  They deny themselves the opportunity to do what they love because they don't have the self-confidence needed to follow that path.  They know that if they try and fail on that path it will be doubly hard to take the failure.  So, they pursue more practical (better paying and easier to get) type jobs and careers.  The kind of job you hate but are good at.  The kind that leads to stress, depression, and substance abuse evenings and weekends.




I totally agree. Most people do not actively position themselves through life in order to transform themselves and reach what it is that they wish to reach. They aren't really actively seeking experience as they themselves are under-developed as human beings in one area or the other. By no means is my current occupation something that I will gradually slip into and stick with - I've already faced thoughts of settling in. :shocked: The entire reason I did not follow a more conventional path through college and entering some field is because there was only one interest that I could honestly see myself concerning myself with throughout life. :headbang: (although I have a great variety of interests and facets to concern myself with and to develop as well, from my relationship and my animals to written expression, foreign and artificial languages, script writing, psychology, gardening and mycology, shaping of physical surroundings, etc. etc. etc. etc. :smirk:)...

My plans and goals have and continue to be well thought out and take various general and detailed, specific forms, in all areas. As much as I intend to focus on the present moment and to reap the most experience from it, I also focus on directing that continous experience. :wink: There are times when I start to drift more aimlessly, I will admit it, but yet there is still a central pulse that is driving me, and as time passes, I focus more and more within it all. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.! :lol: :wink:

I'd like to thank you for posing the right comments and questions at the crucially right times, as you certainly have allowed me to think some thoughts that needed attention. :thumbup: :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Self Sabotage [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4570997 - 08/23/05 01:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'd like to thank you for posing the right comments and questions at the crucially right times, as you certainly have allowed me to think some thoughts that needed attention. 


Thanks for the thanks.  You brought tears to my eyes!  Great post and nice to hear more about you.  :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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