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fireworks_god
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4551295 - 08/18/05 11:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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LuNaTiX said: ...which makes me no better or worse, hence not having an ego.
Not having an ego? What is an ego, as you use the term?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LuNaTiX
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551394 - 08/18/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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haha, you are exactly the person I am looking for to challenge my beliefs. I appreciate what you are doing although this it is not normal to enjoy stress... but knowing that stress causes change makes it good in my mind. I shal do my best to explain myself more clearly to you.
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Drop the beliefs. This isn't a question of "right" or "wrong" (even though you later go on to define different traits as "evil", the epitome of right or wrong... ), it is a question of the definitions of concepts such as "spirituality" and "knowledge" and if you are properly understanding them and how they relate.
I'll answer this with an quote of an edit you might have missed.
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Edit: when I say evil, it does not mean wrong, it is just counter productive to mankind(human existance), and the universe will find a way to balance it out one way or the other, although we will suffer.
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I don't remember taking offense, so I don't know why you would claim that.
Offense can be expressed in many ways, have you ever read text from a book or a post and assumed you understood their state of mind based on experience? this would be the case here, although I could be wrong, it was more of a shot in the dark based on my experiences in life.
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In what manner is knowledge "light" and spirituality "darkness"?
Knowledge is what the mind can process and understand, spirituality is what it can not.
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The pivotal thrust of my quoted reply is that this duality, this portrayal of knowledge as existing at one extreme and of spirituality as existing opposite of that is your concept, and that the very nature of what spirituality is and what knowledge is proves that your concept is baseless, that it doesn't actually represent the reality of these concepts.
You are correct, and I love your choice of words. If you are will to change, then perhaps this little concept or theory helps explain what you are trying to understand. << Click Here >>, if you do not want to read this because it is rather extensive, I would also understand.
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In other words, knowledge and understanding does not lie opposite of spirituality. Effectively demonstrate how they do, so that we may continue this discussion. What was your definition of spirituality again?
Knowledge is what the mind can process and understand, spirituality is what it can not. Spirit is the will to evolve through the unknown while lack of, is the will to stay were one is.
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So we have a concept that spirituality (which hasn't been defined yet, we don't know what you are referring to when you use that term) is completely opposite of knowledge and understanding (even though you haven't yet described for us how and why this is, what aspects of both conflict with each other and make them opposite), but now when a person "is too much or too little" of one of these extremes (how much is too much and how little is too little?), they are evil. What is evil? Who makes this judgement?
You are correct up to this point minus the fact that you have not yet (while posting this message) read about Negative Quantum Information, and teh fact that you have not yet read why I used the term evil (which is from a human perspective).
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There will forever be a near infinite amount of aspects of reality that we will not know. How does one recognize when one is balanced between how much they know and how much they do not know?
That is correct, I guess its a personal thing based on perception, it would be much like a rooting system in a sense, if your roots become too small and too far down and not connected enough, then that is never good. But if your roots are too thick and not spread out enough, then that is also not very good.
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Also, spirituality might not have one definite definition or meaning, but you are still using the term out of context, thus the confusion.
What would you propose I use? I am up for suggestions and ideas. Its just more of something other people can relate too to make the connection.
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So not knowing expands? I do not clearly know what you mean by "spirituality" because you are using it in a wide variety of manners, or you have misused it before and it is hard to discern what you mean.
yes, in a twisted way that language can not accurately dipict, yes, the awareness that you do not know expands, not the litteral form of not knowing. I have a clear idea of what it is and it changes every day, the question is what other people think it is, that is what concerns me as I try to have a dynamic perception.
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LuNaTiX
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551398 - 08/18/05 11:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ego, to me, based on everything that is of my existence, would be the solidification of my self image or what I perceive to be my existence or perception. Although this is subject to change based on my knowledge which is also subject to change. Perhaps Static and Dynamic Ego would be a better way to describe it. Because the ego itself isn?t always solidified... I would really have to look up the universal definition so that I could build onto th1at.
Update: e?go Audio pronunciation of "ego" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g, g) n. pl. e?gos
1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves. 2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality. 3. 1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit. 2. Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem.
Conclusion: the word ego has more then one meaning which makes building onto it or using it tricky. The idea of Dynamic/Static Ego would be based on the second definition. Thank you for unknowingly encourageing me to research this.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551512 - 08/18/05 12:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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By the way, I feel that I may have come on too strong, as if I was dismissing your expressions. I'm simply interested in refining these ideas so that we can really get to the understanding, challenging your points so that they develop, etc. etc., but I realize that I myself need to take your ideas in their own context and allow for their growth. We all use language differently and express and form our ideas using different structures and from different perspectives. I'll focus more on subtly perceiving your ideas and using my abilities to illuminate them, which is within my capabilities, its just that I'm extremely tired and have trouble thinking right now. 
Let's keep this up. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551524 - 08/18/05 12:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I hadn't read your two latest posts since I made that last one of mine; I have to go off and do other things right now, but I shall return. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LuNaTiX
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551531 - 08/18/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel good knowing that a person can modify the way they think the way you have, unless you are being sarcastic, in which case you still convinced me that you arn't and credit is due either way. I appreciate your understanding though, I am not trying to prove my own beliefs, I am merely trying to give a path to others to help develop their own. I want others to be able to argue and debate their theories much like the way I am willing to debate my own. It is very hard though, 1+1=2, that is simple to debate its based on universal manmade laws.
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gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: fireworks_god]
#4551678 - 08/18/05 01:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey FW,
I think you have been pretty patient working to understand this idea that spirituality is the opposite of knowledge "body of knowledge" or "seeking knowledge".
Lunatix,
In spiritual circles, another word for knowledge is light and another word for light in information. Light, information and knowledge help you to see more of what is there or what was in the dark.
Perhaps, what you are playing with is a brand of spirituality that is in pursuit of the void "nothingness" which they believe all things come from, like its some sort of pure state, total unknowing that knows everything.
I've got a different understanding of it that works with a trinity of not knowing, coming into knowing and then knowing. The unrealized, state of realization, and the realized. From the unfulfilled, to fulfilling to fulfillment. I don't think there is an end to the void and so, no end to what can be realized or fulfilled either.
To me, spirituality is about the journey through the whole process.
I'm going to try to dig up a web-link for you Lunatix that you may like as its based on a duality perspective using a double sided mirror between the world of the spiritual and the physical, mind and matter, which is pretty cool.
Oh, and remember, logic can also be a form of philosophical reasoning. Many spiritualists look for the underlying reason of things to make sense of them. This form of logic is very much used by spiritualists. Where science wants to know, some spiritualist more meta physically oriented, want to know how and WHY- the reason for what is.
Even though philosophical reasoning is not something that can always be proven, it works as tool of deeper understanding for many. This tool, helps to give the user of it peace and acceptance with what is when they come to understand on a deeper level why it is and also, coupled with the how knowledge, how to prevent it in the future, like diseases or conflict.
Medical science in the past, it's changing, use to just treat the physical body. A holistic spiritual approach looks at what was going in the spiritual, mental and emotional bodies that manifested the physical symptoms and treat ALL of them as a synergistic multi layered body.
Spirituality has for me increased my knowledge of the workings of the physical universe, not taken away from it.
A lot happens between the void/nothing stage until nothing becomes something manifested. To me, spirit is the unseen realm between the two that makes it all happen. There's a lot of deeper, personal and subjective knowledge to be sourced from that realm.
Your idea doesn't account for that part. You just have the void and realized covered and left out the in between stage of how nothing becomes something. That's the knowledge most spiritualists I know are after. Some are just after nothingness and a return to the void state of being though. I think the idea for them is that everything is illusion and so the only truth is no truth.....nothing and that's the way to know everything that is true.
That does nothing to keep me healthy and the bills paid with extra so I'm after more, the manifesting part. I want to be able to realize physical life like I do in lucid dream time. Who cares if its an illusion. Making dreams come true is sweet good fun to me.
I think if a spirit isn't challenged, it grows spoiled and rotten, here or in the extra life. Maybe that's what earth is for, a place to send spoiled rotten souls to so they can get their game back.
I enjoyed to see you posting your ideas to understand it all better. Keep sharing!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Amygdala
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Re: Dynamic Knowledge Explaining Spirituality (Picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4552376 - 08/18/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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First off, i am neither agreeing or debating with any comments i have read in this post, i am simply throwing in another perspective, much of my post will be very vulnerable to attack, if that's what helps, feel free. This intro was added last, and reviewing my post I can see the open ends, but thats exactly what the post is about, evaluate or destroy, maybe you'll make it a truth... I'm not claiming to provide any answers, but a question.
Logic, knowledge,(use your own definitions) and extremely advanced math are all useful tools to advance our technology, but they will never present us with the ultimate truth, THE answer. You can spend your life locked in books (I am in no way objection to educating yourself here) searching for the grand theory, but imagine all of the "life"you missed. To simplify:
The endless pursuit of THE truth, is simply a prison to keep one from living the truth.
Though that statement ended with a period, it is more of a question. Maybe science and math can never provide the ultimate answer. Many people are in pursuit of the answer, or the grand unifying theory, but many are too afraid to admit that there just may not be one available...
Did I help whatsoever? Probably not. Did I help advance your conversation? Maybe. Did I present myself as undereducated and ignorant? Possibly. The reason for this post is that I am seeing circles being ran debating over terminology and such, that maybe that is exactly what it is; a circle. You can run around the circle, or you can simply reside inside of it, its up to you.
-------------------- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein
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LuNaTiX
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Re: Dynamic Knowledge Explaining Spirituality (Picture) [Re: Amygdala]
#4553333 - 08/18/05 08:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very nicely said and I understand it quite well.
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The endless pursuit of THE truth, is simply a prison to keep one from living the truth.
This would be very true, especially if someone focused on the meaning of life to the extent that their life became consumed with this chase. It is all about moderation and balance. Some people try to find it with science, some with spiritually, but if you could combine both, then you have a rapidly growing and very active mind.
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LuNaTiX
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Oh, and remember, logic can also be a form of philosophical reasoning. Many spiritualists look for the underlying reason of things to make sense of them. This form of logic is very much used by spiritualists. Where science wants to know, some spiritualist more meta physically oriented, want to know how and WHY- the reason for what is.
I see... I believe it can be said that people may still have a spiritual side without even knowing, and that an atheist may be more in touch with god and the world beyond them then a spiritual follower. Therefor yes logic and or knowledge are excellent tools for anyone who is in tuned with their senses. When I say that a certain type of person is a certain way, I am more or less generalizing, its a bad habit.
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Even though philosophical reasoning is not something that can always be proven, it works as tool of deeper understanding for many. This tool, helps to give the user of it peace and acceptance with what is when they come to understand on a deeper level why it is and also, coupled with the how knowledge, how to prevent it in the future, like diseases or conflict.
I agree completely, what worries me is when this power of how knowledge gets into the wrong hands, perhaps the hands of someone who loves power and money.
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Medical science in the past, it's changing, use to just treat the physical body. A holistic spiritual approach looks at what was going in the spiritual, mental and emotional bodies that manifested the physical symptoms and treat ALL of them as a synergistic multi layered body.
Does such a thing exist in such a time? and if so how many are willing to accept it, is it just the spiritually inclined?
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Spirituality has for me increased my knowledge of the workings of the physical universe, not taken away from it.
Then you are balanced 
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A lot happens between the void/nothing stage until nothing becomes something manifested. To me, spirit is the unseen realm between the two that makes it all happen. There's a lot of deeper, personal and subjective knowledge to be sourced from that realm.
That was nicely said especially "To me, spirit is the unseen realm between the two that makes it all happen.". I agree, "life" and "spirit" to me are the ability to change, I feel alive when my mind changes, I feel dead when nothing changes.
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Your idea doesn't account for that part. You just have the void and realized covered and left out the in between stage of how nothing becomes something. That's the knowledge most spiritualists I know are after. Some are just after nothingness and a return to the void state of being though. I think the idea for them is that everything is illusion and so the only truth is no truth.....nothing and that's the way to know everything that is true.
Interesting, although you may think my concept is missing this middle stage, it is my belief that this middle stage is the spirituality itself, the life or spirit, the connection.
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That does nothing to keep me healthy and the bills paid with extra so I'm after more, the manifesting part. I want to be able to realize physical life like I do in lucid dream time. Who cares if its an illusion. Making dreams come true is sweet good fun to me.
ahah nicely said, I agree... although I have not dreamed (intensely) for a long time, or been able to write a poem or a song, I have had a dream recently, since I changed, my dream is to find a common ground for all religions and non-religions, for all the scientists, for all the average joes and janes, for all the undeveloped minds of the children of the future. My dream is very unlikely but dreams are ment to be chased.
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I think if a spirit isn't challenged, it grows spoiled and rotten, here or in the extra life. Maybe that's what earth is for, a place to send spoiled rotten souls to so they can get their game back.
thats great a spirit stimulator.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4553641 - 08/18/05 09:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for taking the time to read, digest and respond to my reply. It was a refreshing reply for me to read through, your ability to relate to it that is. I know it was long.
You asked one question about if I thought holistic/alternative medicine would be accepted by non spiritual types.
Most definitely it is and has been.
I did some hardcore research on it about 3-4 years back. I found out that Harvard's Medical school opened a Complimentary Alternative Medicine department to find out what all the hub bub was about.
Their research showed that 50% of Americans had used some form of alternative medicine that year. They found the numbers on the rise over a period of years study. Of particular booming growth was in the area of herbal medicine.
In other research I was shocked to find out how many MD were opening centers that incorporated different forms of holistic and alternative medicine in the Chicagoland area. I was beaming to see that people could get the best of both under one roof. They work well together.
The demand is there and I think many MDs are coming around to realizing, people have alternatives to the scalpel and meds and they want to keep their clientele and expand what health care services they can offer.
The other demand they are realizing is the one for preventative medicine which is primarily what holistic and alternative health care focuses on.....prevention. You bet non spiritual types are interested in preventative health care. They want to live long and healthy lives.
Traditional modern medicine typically only sees and treats you when you have a problem, after the fact and sometimes, it's to late to do anything about it from modern medicines abilities.
My daughters pediatrician in Kauai was also a Holistic practitioner. She rocked! You get the best of everything. They treat the person inside the body as well as the body.
It's really not a matter of my opinion if weight is slowly shifting over to MDs offering the best of both, or that public demand is there by all sorts and walks of life. The stats will show it if you do your own research.
I was interested to even find that Lawyers and Athletes made up a large majority of the clientele of new energy medicine practitioners opening up in the Chicagoland suburbs. The town of Naperville alone had over 36 different alternative health care practitioners. That's a very wealthy town. So is Hinsdale and Oakbrook. They are all in the wealthiest county in Illinois-Dupage. Hinsdale has a quickly growing alternative health care center that stems around a Chiropractic business and Oakbrook had opened a large Complex with MD's incorporated.
I mention the growth I saw in these wealthy towns to say that those who can afford the best are demanding more then just poking proding and doping up the physical body, after a problem results as if we are just physical beings.
Sorry if I talked to much. It's just exciting and encouraging to me to see the best of both worlds slowley but surely coming together.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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LuNaTiX
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Im sorry, but I am going to have to sleep, my ability to think at top notch is hampered by the fact that im about to sleep on this keyboard. I must read your reply and the link you refered me to tomarrow morning. I'm always looking forward to absorbing new info though , well not always but im trying to get to that point, and im comming along quite well I find.
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gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4553693 - 08/18/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sweet dreams before you start typing this;
ct gtffbxtrf g
Thats a face plant onto the keyboard
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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LuNaTiX
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This link you have sent me is very interesting. just before reading it, my whole perception once again changed, and now my belief system must be changed, although my current belief system can be added into this new one. Now that I have read that link my new belief system is becomming more stable and makes more sense.
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Icelander
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4556766 - 08/19/05 08:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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LuNaTiX said:
if you expect me to become angry, I can not because of where my knowledge has brought me, you serve an equal purpose in life, which makes me no better or worse, hence not having an ego. Live life the way you plan to, that is how it was ment to be. All that I ask, is that you allow me time to process, I can only explain to much in so much time.
OK, you have 15 minutes. GO!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LuNaTiX
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: Icelander]
#4557051 - 08/19/05 10:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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haha my belief system changed, it more or less explains how I got to spirituality, not what it was, but can be used as a bridge for others who were much like me. basicly my new idea can only be explained as if we were programs within a program.
basicly the universe would be the memory or ram of the computer that we are in, atoms are the base of this program that controls the universe or ram, it is the code that all other codes are built on, it would be like the he binary code for a computer... 0 = negative , 1 = positive, and the neutron is spirituality, or the ability to change. Our god would be like our programer, or creator. Roughly this is what I now believe in. Its all energy.
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Icelander
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Re: Spiritually explained with logic (picture) [Re: LuNaTiX]
#4557977 - 08/20/05 06:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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LuNaTiX said: haha my belief system changed, it more or less explains how I got to spirituality, not what it was, but can be used as a bridge for others who were much like me. basicly my new idea can only be explained as if we were programs within a program.
basicly the universe would be the memory or ram of the computer that we are in, atoms are the base of this program that controls the universe or ram, it is the code that all other codes are built on, it would be like the he binary code for a computer... 0 = negative , 1 = positive, and the neutron is spirituality, or the ability to change. Our god would be like our programer, or creator. Roughly this is what I now believe in. Its all energy.
I agree that it's all energy. Now what exactally is energy?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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