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InvisibleRavus
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Homo sapiens
    #4550221 - 08/18/05 04:10 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

The behavior of homo sapiens is massively complex, but one of the most interesting aspects is one I'm sure everyone here experiences.

This is the fact that we continuously regard humans as something more than animals. We continuously see emotion and overcoming in them, while we look at a cow and, despite any suffering and emotions it feels, think only of hamburgers and milk. OK, that's not true for vegans, but nevertheless most people continuously look at other animals as simply animals while regarding humans something more.

But humans are animals, and not superior in any sense. We have not outlived the other animals; some are much more ancient than us. We can send a man to the moon, but this does nothing for our survival. In the end, we are the same old primates, eating, fucking, sleeping, continuously ignoring the massive social system we have among us animals because it comes so naturally to us. We animals have evolved to forget that we're animals! Man, how fucked up is that? Why would we evolve this way?

And the most amazing part about this is that I am an animal. I am a homo sapiens, yet I can't even realize the fact that I'm simply a hominoid descended from a population that once bottlenecked, some stranded tiny group of primates that gave birth to the entire species known as homo sapiens. And despite being a homo sapiens without any computers, and despite probably speaking in clicks, they are still humans- humans and animals. The point where it all comes together; the odd part is, we're still at that point but have simply forgotten it. We haven't even changed species, less likely kingdoms.

How exactly can we be animals and not realize it? How can we fuck animals and not realize this person is just a warm-blooded mammal like any other? How can we slaughter tens of billions of cows so quickly and willingly to get their succulent meat, yet weep and mourn for years over one measly human who Darwinism took out?

I'm guessing this is what another poster calls the lack of spirituality as logic overruns the mind. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4550268 - 08/18/05 04:20 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i don't think this is the case for everyone, i see humans as apes. there's also nothing unnatural about regarding humans as something more than animals, its because when we see another human there is instant recoginition that we are of the same species. it makes sense that we should be programmed to attatch special significance to members of our own species.

also, what is an animal anyway? you can say its part of nature but what is nature? i think that's the real mystery.


Edited by Deviate (08/18/05 04:21 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Deviate]
    #4550303 - 08/18/05 04:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed, it's possible the entire difference between our view of a human and our view of an animal comes from the fact that humans are of the same species. This may also be why we see everything human-made as "unnatural", but if any other animal makes it their creation is simply another wonder of nature.

An animal is anything part of the animal kingdom, which is really the multicellular organisms moving around out there. But when I speak of animal, I'm more speaking of the advanced vertebrates, not the ants and spiders. We look down on cows and deer and raccoons as "animals", yet most people don't see humans as part of this category.

I think nature is everything in the universe; it seems illogical that anything could be separate from nature, including the human animal.

Perhaps you have better skills at comprehending the truth than I do, because I can't look at a person and see them simply as an ape or a primate. I always see them as different, despite my attempts not to. Perhaps because they're so familiar to me that the illusion of difference has grown; that is possible. If I was raised in a family of wolves, I'm sure I could easily look at a human and see them as an animal, while looking at a wolf and seeing them as something more.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4550701 - 08/18/05 09:02 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's quite simple actually. Non-human animals tend to have the same behavioral patterns as other non-human animals. I'm talking about behavior based mostly on instinct and/or fixed action patterns.

Now, humans put everything into categories, right? Well, we have the dumb animal category, with every animal except the human. Then we have the thinking animal category, with, well, only human beings and no other animal. So we make a distinction between ourselves and all other animals. It is because of the hugely prevalent similarities in the behaviors of most animals, that the glaring differences in human behavior stick out like a sore thumb. I don't think this has anything to do with logic "overrunning the mind." (Oh my, wouldn't that be a terrible thing.....)

sorry i keep editing this post 100 times for clarity


Edited by RedNukleus (08/18/05 09:08 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4550759 - 08/18/05 09:50 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm guessing this is what another poster calls the lack of spirituality as logic overruns the mind.




I hope you're not refering to me. My spirituality must past the logic test to be of value. Some call their thinking logical when in fact it is not. Often it is emotional and biased and they are unaware of it.

           





 



Quote:

i don't think this is the case for everyone, i see humans as apes. there's also nothing unnatural about regarding humans as something more than animals, its because when we see another human there is instant recoginition that we are of the same species. it makes sense that we should be programmed to attatch special significance to members of our own species.

also, what is an animal anyway? you can say its part of nature but what is nature? i think that's the real mystery.




I also see humans as apes/animals. I also feel the Tao in us and know it runs through all things. Just because we are animals does not mean we are not also spirit. IMO we are Spirit and it has chosen the way it manifests in human/animal form. Still all Spirit. I agree this real mystery is Nature. Again, why is anything at all here?  If you can't use Science to study it. Find another tool. Otherwise you are locked into Science as the only true God/Religion. Not logical in my view. But don't get me wrong. Science is one of our best and most usefull tools to explore life. I love it. :heart:


If you want to see things differently, or in a broader context that is more inclusive, then you will find a way. If you are trapped in only one narrow view, predicated by your early life experiences then you will believe that to be the whole of truth. To survive on the path of Knowledge one has to be a Warrior. :wink: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4550765 - 08/18/05 09:54 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that we're animals, but I'd say that once we learned language, we were able to create societies of such complexity as to dominate nature, which is why we have come to consider ourselves as something more than animals.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Silversoul]
    #4550791 - 08/18/05 10:08 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I agree that we're animals, but I'd say that once we learned language, we were able to create societies of such complexity as to dominate nature, which is why we have come to consider ourselves as something more than animals.




Why's that, complex societies, or advanced language? Both are evident throughout the animal kingdom, obviously, not to such a magnitude as we have advanced both, but that is only because advanced forms of both are more necessary for our survival than for other animals, I suspect.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4550796 - 08/18/05 10:12 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
obviously, not to such a magnitude as we have advanced in both,




Exactly, and the difference is so great that we make a distinction between ourselves and animals. Simple as that.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4550821 - 08/18/05 10:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RedNukleus said:
Exactly, and the difference is so great that we make a distinction between ourselves and animals. Simple as that.




And the central idea that is proposed by this thread is that the distinction that we have made is baseless and is not actually representative of the reality of the situation.

The difference is only in the application of society and language, not actually within society or language itself. Any difference that comes as a result of the application of these concepts does not seperate one species from another - a bee can express the specific location of the site for a new hive miles away through complex, rhythmic movements of its body, so that other bees (and researchers studying this) can arrive at that place. Species will use these aspects of animal nature in a manner that pertains to themselves and their survival. A bee isn't elevated above a deer on some scale. Humans aren't above or seperate from whales. We're just different.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4550872 - 08/18/05 10:51 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

A bee does not invent its body-language. It follows what are called "fixed-action patterns". I will explain this. The movements of lots of animals follow specific genetic instructions. The gait (walking style) of a horse, and even the gait of a human, are stored in the genetic code (although this only is expressed when the person or horse is not consciously altering his or her own gait). The existence of fixed-action patterns is especially clear in some parasitic worms. These worms will change their bodily motions, from hanging out to undulating fiercely, for instance, in response to the chemical environment that surrounds them. This is how they navigate themselves to certain specific areas of their hosts body, such as a specific piece of intestine, for example. Even with no ability to think, the worms will get to their genetically programmed destination within their host, nearly every time.

Humans have thinking brains, and have the ability to follow instinct, or not follow. This is why a bee's bodily communication cannot be equated with, for example, a catcher's signalling in baseball.

Just as an aside, my username actually applies to this topic! The red nucleus is a part of the brain that deals with regulating unconscious movement. I think it might be specifically for gait only, but I don't quite remember.


Edited by RedNukleus (08/18/05 10:57 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4550886 - 08/18/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RedNukleus said:
Humans have thinking brains, and have the ability to follow instinct, or not follow. This is why a bee's bodily communication cannot be equated with, for example, a catcher's signalling in baseball.




Or, at least, that humans have the ability to think they have the ability to choose the manner in which they act, as they are experiencing it. Perhaps humans simply have more complex programming so that these "fixed action patterns" take on a more dynamic form. Every action or thought that we undergo is simply a response to the environment which surrounds us, and these actions or thoughts are specified by our pre-existing mental programming.

You display the common thought that human's language ability is entirely different than the signals that animals use, but yet animal's language can and does change due to changes in their environment. I see no specific point at which humans are bestowed with choice free from their previous mental programming, at which point humans become seperate from animals.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4550910 - 08/18/05 11:15 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
the central idea that is proposed by this thread is that the distinction that we have made is baseless and is not actually representative of the reality of the situation.




I'll make another reply because I'm talking about something else now. Humans make a distinction between themselves and all other animals. You say that this distinction does not represent reality. I say it does, but there's something fishy about all this. I think that we in fact are not truly in disagreement with each other! It comes down to both our definition of the word animal, and also what comes to mind when one says the word "animal."

Yes, all animals including humans are animals. This is true by definition, and we do not disagree on this point.

However, a common usage of the word "animal" is to refer to any non-human animal. This is because of these categories that our brains make:

Smart animals: Myself, and only those other creatures who are the same species as me
Dumb animals: Every animal that is not in the smart animal category

We as humans commonly use the word "animal" to refer only to the "dumb animal" category.
I think that what's happening here is not that you and I regard ourselves as distinct from other animals and therefore "not animals". What we do is make these smart animal and dumb animal categories, but we don't acknowledge it in our spoken language. Why not? Because humans are the only members of the smart animal category, and we are humans ourselves.


Edited by RedNukleus (08/18/05 12:01 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4550928 - 08/18/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This reply is to your most recent post about how humans, like other animals, are signal-response systems. This is true, but regardless, the enormous difference in complexity between this system in ourselves, and in other animals, is real. This difference alone is grounds enough to justify a distinction between humans and "dumb animals".


Edited by RedNukleus (08/18/05 11:30 AM)


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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4550976 - 08/18/05 11:36 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly, we seem to be much more capable of applying these traits to such an immensity that no other known species can compare in that context. The distinction is real but yet the distinction does not seperate ourselves from other animals, that it is simply a distinction between the manners in which us and they have applied these specific traits.

That's the summation of what we're saying, right? :grin:

By the way, they made you take down your signature, eh? I thought it made spirituality much more pleasing. :tongue:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4551051 - 08/18/05 12:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah someone asked me to take it down, so I made that silly text version of it. The guy uses the shroomery in public and the sig was big so it made him uncomfortable.

And yeah, I think we are on the same page now. Great.

Anyway here's the picture! The link is safe for work.
http://chaosgerbil.23ae.com/Bob_Dobbs/SubgeniusImages/page_03.htm


Edited by RedNukleus (08/18/05 12:12 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4551300 - 08/18/05 01:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

"We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth."
-- Henry Beston, circa 1925


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Icelander]
    #4551687 - 08/18/05 03:17 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I hope you're not refering to me. My spirituality must past the logic test to be of value. Some call their thinking logical when in fact it is not. Often it is emotional and biased and they are unaware of it.





No, I was referring to http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...e=0&fpart=1 as that last part about being an evil "emotionless robot" in the picture stuck in my mind.

Quote:

If you can't use Science to study it. Find another tool. Otherwise you are locked into Science as the only true God/Religion. Not logical in my view. But don't get me wrong. Science is one of our best and most usefull tools to explore life. I love it.




What other tools are you talking about? Taoism?

And what do you mean, we are "all Spirit"? Is the spirit a connected soul, or simply the sum total of the functions of the brain?

People say humans are different because we have the conscious thought necessary to go around instinct and genetics, but I don't necessarily think of this as true. What creates the area for conscious thought? Evidently, genetics; there's no place else where it could come from. The environment then acts upon this area of the brain to different extents, but the potential has been there ever since homo sapiens wasn't much different from any other animal in wild. And we're still the same species to this day.

If indeed the potential for conscious thought comes from genetics, and instinct comes from genetics also, then they have the same source; after that, it is simply processes in the animal deciding which one is more applicable to the situation. This helps human survival tremendously, as they can utilize instinct when a punch is being thrown at them but utilize conscious thought for the overall battle plan. If other animals don't do this and lack the potential for conscious thought, then we are distinguished in this respect; but seeing as some monkeys can paint abstract paintings and walk on stilts I don't really believe this. And living with an intelligent dog for many years, I can see him using conscious thought sometimes more than I can see some homo sapiens using it.

In the grand outlook of things, many animals are still our closely-related brethren. Humans distinguish themselves because of what they have performed in a few centuries; relative to the universe, this is simply a monkey's trick performed in the spin of an electron.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Homo sapiens [Re: Ravus]
    #4551881 - 08/18/05 04:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What other tools are you talking about? Taoism?




could be :grin:, but I could use philosophy, or intuition, psychedelics, there must be others.

Quote:

And what do you mean, we are "all Spirit"? Is the spirit a connected soul, or simply the sum total of the functions of the brain?
Quote:



Back to Tao. I use the word spirit just because it's convienent. We are all aspects of the creative force. Your brain that you are using right now isn't able to answer the question of why it or anything exists. Maybe it's not the perfect tool, or maybe there is something else going on besides brain function. We just don't have all the answers. At some point speculation is in order. Especially if that speculation has the effect to increase your joy of living. For instance I speculate that Tao is real. So I use the concepts and they work for me in my day to day living. So why not. I can't prove it is or isn't, objectively. Still it seems to work for me. I made it here, semi sane and happy at 52. I still feel young and alive. I have good things in my life. That's really all I need to know.

---------------------


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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