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OfflineDeviate
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free will
    #4549643 - 08/18/05 01:36 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

ive never really understood free will. i'm not saying it doesn't exist, i just seem to have a hard time understanding exactly what it is. is it simply the ability to do what you want? i'd be interested to hear some of your ideas on free will.


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InvisibleSubGen1us
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549651 - 08/18/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

its something u do because u choose to do it.
If u dont want to do it but u have to is wat i consider the opposite.


--------------------


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549683 - 08/18/05 01:50 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

There are no choices in a deterministic universe, or, for that matter, a deterministic multiverse.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: free will [Re: SubGen1us]
    #4549688 - 08/18/05 01:51 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Under strict determinism it is humans not being able to break the chain of cause and effect. Under compatibilism it is humans making choices that god knew they were going to take. If otherwise, it is that people make choices which can only mean determinism is wrong.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


Edited by LittleBen (08/18/05 01:58 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: free will [Re: LittleBen]
    #4549698 - 08/18/05 01:52 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Under strict determinism it is humans being able to break the chain of cause and effect.




If this were true then it would not be determinism, though I don't think such a system to "break determinism" could exist because the actions to break determinism must've had casuality, making it deterministic all along.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4549716 - 08/18/05 01:58 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

yea I meant not able. Determinism means god or science wins.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: free will [Re: LittleBen]
    #4549749 - 08/18/05 02:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

thats my problem with free will. if you make a decision that decison must have been made as the result of certain causes and if you trace back the chain of causality you will ultimately end up at a cause beyond yourself, so what is free will?

could free will simply be the ability to make a decision and experience the consequences? for example a rock has no free will because it has no ability to make decisions.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549768 - 08/18/05 02:13 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

would it make sense that you experience free will, but don't have it?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549774 - 08/18/05 02:14 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

But how do you know you can make a decision? The little secret of free will is that there's no evidence of it, because you can only make one decision; it's impossible to know whether you could've done otherwise.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: free will [Re: kaiowas]
    #4549783 - 08/18/05 02:16 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
would it make sense that you experience free will, but don't have it?




Indeed, but if that's so you're not experiencing free will according to its definition; you're experiencing the illusion of free will. The question would then be why evolution developed the illusion of free will in humans, and I'm sure it'd have an interesting answer.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4549808 - 08/18/05 02:23 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

so i take it free will only exists as an illusion or experience although that illusion may have more reality than we make it out to because it would seem that the illusion would affect our choices. for example if one were to become consciously aware that there choices were predetermined they would seek cease to think and act as if they had free will.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4549818 - 08/18/05 02:27 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

kaiowas said:
would it make sense that you experience free will, but don't have it?




Indeed, but if that's so you're not experiencing free will according to its definition; you're experiencing the illusion of free will. The question would then be why evolution developed the illusion of free will in humans, and I'm sure it'd have an interesting answer.





I got a chill down my spine reading that heh. i have to think on that one for a little bit before answering, but another question came up in my head "are you sure evolution developed free will?" I guess what I mean is does having this illusion of free will essential for living?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549830 - 08/18/05 02:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

" But how do you know you can make a decision? The little secret of free will is that there's no evidence of it, because you can only make one decision; it's impossible to know whether you could've done otherwise.
"

right but i only meant the ability to select a a course of action that will lead to a certain goal rather than completely at random. for example if i decide to play a game of chess i do so with the confidence that i can string a set of decisions together that will result in the check mate of my opponent. even if my decisions are predetermined they arent completely random.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4549848 - 08/18/05 02:34 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

How can anything be completely random anyway? Maybe on the quantum scale, but even then there's a certain limited number of choices they have and the decision (in this universe) seems random; however, this would nevertheless make the multiverse deterministic since each one of those choices is fulfilled.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4549882 - 08/18/05 02:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

i agree again, by random i only meant apparently random.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: free will [Re: Deviate]
    #4550838 - 08/18/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that free will exists, and is also not an illusion. The human brain becomes conscious of ideas, and and can manipulate ideas and draw conclusions. Perhaps if you took all the laws of physics and nature (impossible now because nobody has full grasp of them), and used them to look at the human thought process, the idea of free will would degrade. However, from the perspective of a human observing himself live, free will is a clear and present part him. From this perspective, free will does exist. I will claim that free will is not an illusion. I wish I could explain myself but I'm finding it hard.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: free will [Re: SubGen1us]
    #4550930 - 08/18/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SubGen1us said:
its something u do because u choose to do it.
If u dont want to do it but u have to is wat i consider the opposite.




Wouldn't you have to defy all laws of physics in order to make choices?
Isn't free will something supernatural and mystical?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: free will [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4550938 - 08/18/05 11:24 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

"Wouldn't you have to defy all laws of physics in order to make choices?
Isn't free will something supernatural and mystical?"

Let's talk about this together. You and I are interested in the same part of this debate, but you have a different perspective. However I see where you are coming from and I think that with some discussion you might convince me. So let's talk on this, ok?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: free will [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4550952 - 08/18/05 11:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

ok then, your turn to say something


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: free will [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4550957 - 08/18/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

damn i thought you'd say that. I will. Later on though, I have to get off the computer.


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