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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
A famous military historian once told me
    #4541734 - 08/16/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Debate going to war as much as possible, but once the decision is made you MUST support it.

The more I think about it the more it rings true.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineLSDempire
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Registered: 04/23/05
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4541792 - 08/16/05 11:44 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You are not enlightened.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4541976 - 08/16/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Debate going to war as much as possible, but once the decision is made you MUST support it.



Would you care to explain the logic behind this?


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OfflineWorf
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4541999 - 08/16/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

so what if there wasn't any debate to go to war?


--------------------
Kira: What do Klingons dream about?

Worf: Things that would send cold chills down your spine, and wake you up in the middle of the night. No, it is better you do not know


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InvisibleToolTroll
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Worf]
    #4542024 - 08/16/05 01:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Or rather what if the debate had no effect on the decision to go to war. Like the decision was made ahead of time and no amount of public discourse or debate could change the final act of going to war against the better judgement of the rest of the world.


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"This whole idea that different is bad, that a change in consciousness is in itself harmful, is really one of the fundamental problems inherent in the drug war.” - Rick Doblin
my cactus collection
You vote with your dollars. Everyday. Vote responsibly.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Silversoul]
    #4542109 - 08/16/05 01:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Debate going to war as much as possible, but once the decision is made you MUST support it.



Would you care to explain the logic behind this?




As much as I could talk on the subject, I will make it simple....

It is in the nations best interest.

I'd hate to get into an argument over that postulate, but supposing that is what we are working with, it is essential that the country carry out its duties to the end. We failed in Vietnam and its infection has emboldened the new insurgency to follow that same route, hope that we lose heart and subsequent victory. If this is the basis for winning a war against us, it will only help enemies realize how we can be beaten time and time again. This does nothing for future security.

The argument against this as I've found has nothing to do with strategic defense of a nation, but more as chest-pounding morality stances that have no significance to the realities that our nation must deal with.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4542136 - 08/16/05 01:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
It is in the nations best interest.



Translation for less ambiguity: "It is in the government's best interest" or more precisely, it is in the best interests of those who hold the reigns of power in the government.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4542164 - 08/16/05 01:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Your argument seems to assume that those who support the war are right. What if we're in a war that we shouldn't be in? If the war is just, then it can be easily defended against those who oppose it, and there is no need to shut them up. If the war is unjust, then perhaps we should pull out, like we did in Vietnam. I fail to see the net benefit in depriving people of hearing all sides of the issue.


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OfflineSycronica
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Silversoul]
    #4542308 - 08/16/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Support going to war without giving it any thought, listen to your govt and blindly obey! baaaaah baaaaaaah baaaaaaaah


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4542342 - 08/16/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Debate going to war as much as possible, but once the decision is made you MUST support it.



Would you care to explain the logic behind this?




As much as I could talk on the subject, I will make it simple....

It is in the nations best interest.

I'd hate to get into an argument over that postulate, but supposing that is what we are working with, it is essential that the country carry out its duties to the end.




adventures such as iraq and vietnam (and the spanish-american war) dont fall under the category of duties...

OTOH..im open to the possibility that it might be in the nations' best interest..if we really are facing a grave energy crisis which leaves us with an agonizing choice between aggressive warfare vs allowing millions of americans to freeze and/or starve to death due to lack of affordable energy...however..bushco has not tried to make this case..but rather sneeringly attempts to justify aggression based on their own imaginary moral superiority...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4542922 - 08/16/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
It is in the nations best interest.



Translation for less ambiguity: "It is in the government's best interest" or more precisely, it is in the best interests of those who hold the reigns of power in the government.




I have determined that it is in my best interest. I have voted for politicians who I believed would implement as much of what I want done as possible. I tell them with my vote what I want done. I am not a mindless sheeperson just because you disagree with me. You are not a mindless sheeperson just because I disagree with you. You are just mistaken and there is still hope that you can be educated. Well maybe not you. (You misspelled reins.)


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4543000 - 08/16/05 06:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I have voted for politicians who I believed would implement as much of what I want done as possible. I tell them with my vote what I want done.



Curiously, politicians are under no obligation to carry out your wishes even if you voted for the winning politician. As a matter of fact, many politicians break their words and openly lie to get elected. Regardless, this does not change the fact of my previous statements.

Quote:

... there is still hope that you can be educated. Well maybe not you.



Interesting remarks. Have you educated yourself yet on the nature of The Bill of Rights or congressional declarations of war as outlined in the Constitution? How about logical fallacies?

Quote:

(You misspelled reins.)



Why thank you. I shall endeavor to type more slowly and proof read more closely.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
Loc: unknown
Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4543100 - 08/16/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Debate going to war as much as possible, but once the decision is made you MUST support it.

The more I think about it the more it rings true.




I support wars against states not wars for states. I'd like to go to war on any state in the entire world. Including the US.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4543331 - 08/16/05 08:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I have voted for politicians who I believed would implement as much of what I want done as possible. I tell them with my vote what I want done.



Curiously, politicians are under no obligation to carry out your wishes even if you voted for the winning politician. As a matter of fact, many politicians break their words and openly lie to get elected. Regardless, this does not change the fact of my previous statements.




But they are still mostly doing what I want

Quote:



Quote:

... there is still hope that you can be educated. Well maybe not you.



Interesting remarks. Have you educated yourself yet on the nature of The Bill of Rights or congressional declarations of war as outlined in the Constitution? How about logical fallacies?





you funny boy.
Quote:



Quote:

(You misspelled reins.)



Why thank you. I shall endeavor to type more slowly and proof read more closely.




--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4543389 - 08/16/05 08:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I just need a place to put this and this is just as good as any

"Dave?s analysis repeats the assertion made by Austin Bay and others familiar with the situation on the ground in Iraq that the ?failure? or ?quagmire? we fear?the one driving Presidential approval ratings down and causing so much handwringing (and, in some quarters, even a mild schadenfreude) among opponents of Operation Iraqi Freedom?is largely a mirage, the product of an insurgency using an international and domestic media driven by sensationalism and fiery visuals to create the appearance of unrelenting carnage and an insurgency that is growing in strength, which is not the case."

Find the rest here:

http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/18839/#comments


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Silversoul]
    #4543726 - 08/16/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Your argument seems to assume that those who support the war are right.




Right in what sense? If they made the wrong decision then it was a strategic error, if they made the right decision it was a well calculated move.

Quote:

Paradigm said:What if we're in a war that we shouldn't be in?




But we are? That is my point, there is only one thing to do, win.

Quote:

Paradigm said:If the war is just, then it can be easily defended against those who oppose it, and there is no need to shut them up.




I don't think it is that easy. If there isn't a clear and concise moral principle at stake, (and there rarely is), then any talking point can be used to be against any war you choose. People aren't concerned about making decisions concerning the overall picture, because most don't understand the overall picture. That goes for both sides. If it can't be seen by your typical naked eye, then it is lost to them and any idiot, idealist, or talking head can pick up the new argument of the week and let loose a salvo that doesn't concern the struggle that is going on right now.


Quote:

Paradigm said:
If the war is unjust, then perhaps we should pull out, like we did in Vietnam. I fail to see the net benefit in depriving people of hearing all sides of the issue.




Unjust? Why should decisions on war be regarded in terms of morality? What about survivibility?

The loss in vietnam hurt us more than it helped. Like I said in a post in S&P, the tactics used there are the exact ones we are facing in Iraq, and our loss in Vietnam shows that our public doesn't have the fortitude to see things through.

We can go on and on about what is just and unjust, but our leaders are not prophets nor should they aspire to be. They are defenders of our nation and with that our entire government is built upon.

Justice is making the best strategic decisions for our country, and once a war is started, the best decision is victory, anything less only weakens our path in the future.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: Silversoul]
    #4545817 - 08/17/05 09:05 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Your argument seems to assume that those who support the war are right. What if we're in a war that we shouldn't be in? If the war is just, then it can be easily defended against those who oppose it, and there is no need to shut them up. If the war is unjust, then perhaps we should pull out, like we did in Vietnam. I fail to see the net benefit in depriving people of hearing all sides of the issue.




What was unjust about liberating the Vietnamese people?

They sure did well when we pulled out and the communists slaughtered millions.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4545895 - 08/17/05 10:04 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Your argument seems to assume that those who support the war are right. What if we're in a war that we shouldn't be in? If the war is just, then it can be easily defended against those who oppose it, and there is no need to shut them up. If the war is unjust, then perhaps we should pull out, like we did in Vietnam. I fail to see the net benefit in depriving people of hearing all sides of the issue.




What was unjust about liberating the Vietnamese people?

They sure did well when we pulled out and the communists slaughtered millions.



Like we didn't? That war was built on lies and deception, just like a more recent war I can think of.


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: looner2]
    #4546759 - 08/17/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

how far off the cliff do you ride that train?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: A famous military historian once told me [Re: afoaf]
    #4546869 - 08/17/05 03:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Train?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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