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OfflineUnagipie
Pilgrim -DBK鰻

Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 6,300
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Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Is violence ever justified?
    #4541554 - 08/16/05 10:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A prime example of this would be the reaction to Nazi Germany in the 40's, which is in contradiction to the pacifist doctrine.

Can violence ever be justified? During the Nazi occupation of France, resistance fighters would often make homemade bombs, plant them under bridges and detonating them as Nazy soldiers passed over the bridge. These Frenchmen are famously known as freedom fighters.

However when one is in a situation where he does not apply pacificism, the situation quickly becomes one of warfare and causes.

Warfare is not without an ugly side. Innocent people die in warfare regardless of the cause, and this commonly known as collateral damage.

Next, is the cause. Each cause is different than the next. Some are more justified than others. The French resistance against Nazis was far more justified than the cause the Irish have been fighting for (a Unified Ireland) for so many years. Some causes are a must for reaction - an example of this was the Muslim resistance in Bosnia in the 90's; if there ever was a justified jihad, it was this. When people are faced with genocide, often violence against those committing the genocide is the only solution.

But how does one determine what a just cause is? Is a nationalist movement, like the Basque seperatists, or other seperatist movements a just cause? Clearly there is a difference between a nation of people who simply want to become autonomous and a nation of people who are being subjected to genocide.

Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what should have been done about Adolf Hitler, he simply replied that injustice, wherever it is, needs to be exposed by non-violent means. When injustice is exposed, injustice will be dealt with. But is this at all logical? Could one have honestly ended the Holocaust by "exposing" the injustices of Nazi Germany?

What are your thoughts...

Is violence, under certain conditions, ever justified?


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4541604 - 08/16/05 10:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you are very Spiritually advanced and someone disagrees with your pie-in-the-sky post, then violence is justified.  :crazy2:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Swami]
    #4541619 - 08/16/05 10:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

By saying pie in the sky post you are supposing that he has already come to a conclusion. IMO he has asked a question so it may be explored. Seems to be an honorable thing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Icelander]
    #4541647 - 08/16/05 10:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The You was the general You not the Unagipie You.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Swami]
    #4541651 - 08/16/05 10:53 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Oh! Those aliens again. :crazy:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4541657 - 08/16/05 10:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Is violence, under certain conditions, ever justified?



I believe that Mahatma Gandhi was correct, and that what the French have done, was right in a sense, but was wrong towards humanity. Gandhi I Believe was a great man; he believed that there was a non-violent solution to many of the great problems. But doing the ?right? thing (based on the solutions impact on humanity) is a lot harder then the logical thing, finding the non-violent solution is a lot more complex then the violent one, but they are both logical, just one requires a stronger (spiritually) mind then the other.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4541776 - 08/16/05 11:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Violence stands beyond justification and morality, it is essential to our survival and survival is intertwined with our instincts. Do what nature has intended you to do.

I am sick of hearing some philosophical stance on justice and morality like an individual has spent years honing his internal doctrine of what is universally right and wrong. In the age when increasing secular attitudes meet your average "deep" individual then we are met with a pretentious guide for all of humanity. Wait, whats this doctrine called...? Thats right, he is a humanist.

Pick the latest fashionable proof for non-violence and scream your head off. Ignore the man with the gun behind the fence, and drop love bombs on him when he is sleeping. Please, where do I sign up for such a profound movement?


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: looner2]
    #4541811 - 08/16/05 11:51 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Theres a reason you are the way you are, it does not mean you are wrong, all ways of life work. Believe me when I say there is a purpose in life for everyone and everything. For every up there is a down, for every right a left for ever good a bad, for every right a wrong, for every postive a negitive. You would be the negitive energy in a sense, while others may be the positive, neither is any better then the other, they just serve different purposes. Live your life the way fate has intended, that is all you can do. And by the way, I was exactly like you.


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Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Registered: 08/21/04
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Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4541990 - 08/16/05 01:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Some causes are a must for reaction - an example of this was the Muslim resistance in Bosnia in the 90's; if there ever was a justified jihad, it was this. When people are faced with genocide, often violence against those committing the genocide is the only solution."

I think you just answered your own question.

The obvious answer to your question is "self defense". The survival factor is an easy way to justify violence, as long as you are not the agressor. But of course most cases are never that simple...

For example:
What if there is a group of people who are dying of starvation from lack of resources. Their neighbors happen to have an abundance of resources, enough for both groups, but the neighbors refuse to share. They are essentially causing the starvation and death of that group. Would they be justified in attacking their neighbors in order to save the lives of their children and families?

Are they not fighting for their very survival? Are they not fighting the injustice of their neighbors?

The fact of the matter that violence (as a human behavior) doesn't have to be justified, because it is unstoppable. It simply IS. Despite right or wrong, moral or immoral, it is a part of our nature. There are lots of reasons why we are violent, and none of them are easily explained.

Of course we should try to limit our destructiveness, or bring the end to all of us. We need to try as hard as we can to love our neighbors, our enemies, and every human being on the face of the earth. But eventually, no matter what, some kind of violence will always resurface...


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4542022 - 08/16/05 01:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

""Can violence ever be justified?""

Yes..


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineLittleBen
Feed Me A StrayCat

Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 202
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4542043 - 08/16/05 01:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Gandhi absolutely did the right thing in their situation. The United States did the right thing by entering WWI and II. Though they made many mistakes in execution, this is inevitable in war. I dont believe that means that war is never necessary. Watch the Fog of War. If you strongly believe war is never necessary it wont be nearly as powerful but if your on the line it is sweet as crap.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4542176 - 08/16/05 01:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Violence in the form of proportionate self-defense is always legitimate.

Violence to escape being physically and mentally persecuted and marginalized is legitimate when all other forms of resistance have been proven futile.

Aggresive or pre-emptive is unacceptable.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4542364 - 08/16/05 02:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Violence in the form of proportionate self-defense is always legitimate.

Violence to escape being physically and mentally persecuted and marginalized is legitimate when all other forms of resistance have been proven futile.

Aggresive or pre-emptive is unacceptable.



:thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4542408 - 08/16/05 03:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

the least violent option should always be chosen,
otherwise you will spend a lot of time justifying it.

some tricks of logic will indicate a kind of risk if non-violence is chosen.
if you have to spend a lot of time justifying it, the logic is not good.

violence should only be chosen if the need is utterly obvious (i.e. here they come again ayeeeiiiiahhh - then you gotta smack-em up)


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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4542648 - 08/16/05 03:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

anything can be justified by the human mind, but that doesn't mean it's logically justified.


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OfflineMyOwnReality
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Registered: 04/11/05
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: moog]
    #4542753 - 08/16/05 04:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Violence.... Violence violence violence. To quote a little physics on the problem, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Violence has been demonstrated to be a property of over population. The stress factors resulting from the rules of competition dictate that sometimes homocide will put an organism ahead, at least in the short term.

Indian tribes and pre-literary societies of all shapes and sizes were and still are known to be violent towards outsiders, especially when in the past outsiders had caused some damage to their society.

Violence is a fact of existence. Stars explode so solar systems can be reborn, a mother risks and often faces death in order to birth a child. Fire burns down a forest so that younger trees can grow. Death is life, and life is death, this is a continual cycle. However, the role one plays in that cycle is all choice.

Did we attack Nazi germany because of the holocost? No, we didn't even know how bad it was, we just knew they and their buddies attacked us and our buddies, so we attacked them back. Was hitler wrong in burning 6 million people? Perhaps he knew something that we don't about that, perhaps he killed 6 million to find and kill one. Imagine how many people would be around right now if it hadn't been for that war, thats alot of extra mouths to feed.

It all basically breaks down to an ego response. The ego will do anything to preserve itself, and thusly the body and culture that supports it. To give up ones ego, is to give up ones desire to survive at all costs, to say I'm putting all the chips on the table and if you want me take me. Is this noble? Yes. Is this right? Not nescessarily. It just is. So is violence justified? Only if you think so.
-MOR


--------------------
www.youtube.com/morstories


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4542877 - 08/16/05 05:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
Theres a reason you are the way you are, it does not mean you are wrong, all ways of life work. Believe me when I say there is a purpose in life for everyone and everything. For every up there is a down, for every right a left for ever good a bad, for every right a wrong, for every postive a negitive. You would be the negitive energy in a sense, while others may be the positive, neither is any better then the other, they just serve different purposes. Live your life the way fate has intended, that is all you can do. And by the way, I was exactly like you.




:rofl2: Yeah looner! I was just like you too. Not. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: MyOwnReality]
    #4542982 - 08/16/05 06:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MyOwnReality said:
Was hitler wrong in burning 6 million people? Perhaps he knew something that we don't about that, perhaps he killed 6 million to find and kill one. Imagine how many people would be around right now if it hadn't been for that war, thats alot of extra mouths to feed.




this could be construed extremely racist
please do think before you write
I will certainly think about this comment before I read anything written by you in the future.
shalom.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4543733 - 08/16/05 10:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
Theres a reason you are the way you are, it does not mean you are wrong, all ways of life work. Believe me when I say there is a purpose in life for everyone and everything. For every up there is a down, for every right a left for ever good a bad, for every right a wrong, for every postive a negitive. You would be the negitive energy in a sense, while others may be the positive, neither is any better then the other, they just serve different purposes. Live your life the way fate has intended, that is all you can do. And by the way, I was exactly like you.




I didn't mean to respond to your post specifically, it was to the overall thread. But it really doesn't matter because you didn't say much. Oh, and I used to be just like you.

To say it takes more spiritual strength for non-violence is disgusting absurd. There are people right now risking their life. Death is right in front of their face, and you tell me some coward sitting home spouting peace and love while taking a hit from the bong has more strength. You make me sick.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Is violence ever justified? [Re: looner2]
    #4543769 - 08/16/05 10:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
Theres a reason you are the way you are, it does not mean you are wrong, all ways of life work. Believe me when I say there is a purpose in life for everyone and everything. For every up there is a down, for every right a left for ever good a bad, for every right a wrong, for every postive a negitive. You would be the negitive energy in a sense, while others may be the positive, neither is any better then the other, they just serve different purposes. Live your life the way fate has intended, that is all you can do. And by the way, I was exactly like you.




I didn't mean to respond to your post specifically, it was to the overall thread. But it really doesn't matter because you didn't say much. Oh, and I used to be just like you.

To say it takes more spiritual strength for non-violence is disgusting absurd. There are people right now risking their life. Death is right in front of their face, and you tell me some coward sitting home spouting peace and love while taking a hit from the bong has more strength. You make me sick.




I would guess it takes some guts to stand alone against a man with a gun, and advocate non violence. I remember a lone man in front of a tank in China, and of course the civil rights movement.

Your black and white attitude towards bravery is ignorant. There are some who fight who are brave and some who are not. There are some who advocate peace who have courage and some because they are afraid. Wake up someday looner.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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