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InvisibleSwami
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Negative on Spirituality?
    #4541521 - 08/16/05 09:51 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I was recently accused of being negative on Spirituality. I don't see that at all.

I am all for any discipline or philosophy or practice that will make you happier, more creative, successful, healthier and so on. What I am harsh on is heresay, false claims and fabricated fluff that leads nowhere.


I was recently accused of driving seekers away from this forum. There are Zen stories about a man sweeping the courtyard for years before he can even speak to the Master. That is a true seeker. Most applaud those stories as long as they remain a story. They want to change without putting forth any effort or sacrifice.

One who runs away after being challenged once or twice on the validity of his Crop Circle or levitation presentation does not qualify as a serious seeker. One minor hurdle and he is done? He wants to transcend ego, yet yelps because he chose to feel wounded when he does not get universal accolades for his post .

Spirituality is not about spinning pinwheels with your mind, hynagogic states, seeing bright lights in the sky and having cool experiences. It is about positive change and growth; everything else is merely a distraction. It is about taking responsibility for your own emotional state. That is maturity.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineiambobby
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4541564 - 08/16/05 10:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Cheer up, I still love you and I see you help people strengthen resolve in their beliefs. The world and this forum wouldn't be the same without you, Swami.


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Yesterday, the world was flat. Today, the world is a round ball. Tomorrow? The world will not be defined so easily with words...


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4541580 - 08/16/05 10:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What about having an open mind, understanding, changing, and becoming one with others and the universe around us in a spiritual sense, is this all not part of spirituality? To me, a fix belief or ideology about spiritualism is so wrong; spiritualism should change as times change. No one person can figure out the true meaning of spirituality alone, it takes many perceptions and much knowledge.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4541635 - 08/16/05 10:49 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I was recently accused of being negative on Spirituality. I don't see that at all.

I am all for any discipline or philosophy or practice that will make you happier, more creative, successful, healthier and so on. What I am harsh on is heresay, false claims and fabricated fluff that leads nowhere.


I was recently accused of driving seekers away from this forum. There are Zen stories about a man sweeping the courtyard for years before he can even speak to the Master. That is a true seeker. Most applaud those stories as long as they remain a story. They want to change without putting forth any effort or sacrifice.

One who runs away after being challenged once or twice on the validity of his Crop Circle or levitation presentation does not qualify as a serious seeker. One minor hurdle and he is done? He wants to transcend ego, yet yelps because he chose to feel wounded when he does not get universal accolades for his post .

Spirituality is not about spinning pinwheels with your mind, hynagogic states, seeing bright lights in the sky and having cool experiences. It is about positive change and growth; everything else is merely a distraction. It is about taking responsibility for your own emotional state. That is maturity.




I just think you have something against illegal aliens. :frown:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #4541662 - 08/16/05 10:58 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe he has an encounter he's still in denial about  :blush: :smirk:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4541665 - 08/16/05 10:58 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe? :whistling:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4541813 - 08/16/05 11:52 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

A friend once described to me the process of firing pottery. Most of the effort is put into shaping the work, then you place it in the kiln and risk that some unseen flaw, bubble, or mistake will cause it to shatter in the intense heat.

If your work is solid, the heat will solidify and preserve it. If not, back to the wheel.

This is a learning process, and just as important as the finished product. Perhaps it takes 25 repetitions before you create a bowl which does not explode in the kiln, but when you retrieve your work, at last intact, you will know that it is as solid as you can make it.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
    #4541826 - 08/16/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I like the way you explained that, very nicely said... :smirk:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4541966 - 08/16/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Spirituality is not about spinning pinwheels with your mind, hynagogic states, seeing bright lights in the sky and having cool experiences. It is about positive change and growth; everything else is merely a distraction. It is about taking responsibility for your own emotional state. That is maturity.




So spirituality is maturity ? I don't think so. I've seen more spirituality in some 7 year old than some adults i know ...
Isn't spirituality a set of beliefs defined by the higher self ?
Besides, "positive change and growth", and "taking responsibility for your own emotional state" are aspects of life. But, alas, life is spiritual if you make it so.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: MAIA]
    #4541985 - 08/16/05 01:05 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

So spirituality is maturity ? I don't think so. I've seen more spirituality in some 7 year old than some adults i know ...

And believe me, I've seen more maturity in some children than some adults I know...

Could it be said that maturity is a product of spiritual growth?


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4542035 - 08/16/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maturity can come from logical growth also, knowledge helps us understand which in turn creates less emotions. Example: a child who is in the dark is more likely to be scared then an adult, because an adult assumes that the majority of the time there is nomore to be scared of in the dark then there is to be scared of while there is light.

But spirituality also matures a person, but I feel that spirituality opens the mind to new possibilities, whereas logic does the opposite.

Perhaps spirituality opens doors while logic explores the rooms.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4542081 - 08/16/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maturity can come from logical growth also,

I'm having a little bit of difficulty getting past the "logical growth" thing here.

It seems it is being implied that logical growth is something that is foriegn to spiritual growth. IMO, this couldn't be any further from the truth. Spiritual growth which genuinely bores the fruit of maturity is contingent on the frequent watering of knowledge and rationality, to fully blossom...
Does this make sense to you?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4542090 - 08/16/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

That sort of thinking kills kittens.


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Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4542160 - 08/16/05 01:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think it does, it makes perfect sense, because logic is a tool of spirituality. But what I ment was logic without spirituality, it is also a form of maturity , but of a lesser extent, although people who have no spirituality advance in this world much more faster, they can not comprehend the world beyond them, but rather have mastered the comprehension of the world that they are in if that makes any sense. I guess what im trying to say is that spirituality and logic help us evolve as humans and logic without that that makes us human evolves us in another direction.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4542161 - 08/16/05 01:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What you described sounds like some eastern version of spirituality.

I didn't know you could define it to anything other then it being some practice, way of life or some level of awareness of SPIRIT.

It can go on in any direction from that into eternity because spirit is eternal itself. If you limit the spirit to just being present in living 3-D forms then, you can do that too. You can put limits on it anywhere you want for focus. That's what we use the ego for.

I keep finding that the limits can be pushed back broken down and there is always more to it.

I realize some people don't understand where the ETs come into play, especially if they are practicing a developed religion. They see them, as if they exists to be a part of the material Universe like we are.

When you explore past Christ or Bhudic consciousness there is another experience of the self to be realized which is the celestial or cosmic self.

That's where the ET's come into play within ones spiritual journey.

Extra terrestrial just means, off from our terrain.

"if" reincarnation is the case as the Buddha taught and I think there are some metaphors for it in the Bible, many souls have lived other physical incarnations off of earths terrain. They have self connections to the celestial, cosmic existence. Those existences have been a part of the larger journey of soul/spirit beyond this life.

That's why they come into play for many people on some form of spiritual path of self realization.

I know some people have a spiritual goal of permanently transcending the ego, but I wouldn't hold everyone to it.

I know a handful here like Hue , myself and JC just see the ego as a creative tool for creating experiences here with. It's a way spirit can define itself for realizing more facets of the whole self.

When you want, you can go into your own Christ consciousness and ego seems to disappear while in it. And then, move back into an ego guise to continue playing the game of self realization through creation.

For some people, it's a search for an objective absolute truth.

For some, it's become about creating realities. In other words, creating what can be real or true and realizing that or manifesting it into matter, something that matters to give meaning to existence.

You probably fall more into the first group and that one is often in conflict with the second group. No surprise why. Only validating what is objective means, you rule out the subjective. Only validating the absolute means you rule out the temporal.

Doing so, you cut off the subjective and temporal experiences of others from being some just a real, from the experiential place.

For the second group, anything can be real "realized" from the subjective or temporal state.

If people get miffy with you, that's all that is going on. If someone asked you to prove your RB history and you couldn't, so they told you it never happened, a huge and meaningful chunk of your life would be invalidated and disregarded by them.

You may understandably experience some frustration.

For people in the second group of explorers, they have to get good at getting use to others doing it if they want to share their subjective and temporal self realizations or be careful with whom and where they share them or just shut up about them if they don't want to face the axe of the first group.

It's all a game of playing hide and seek with the self to me.

Even the objective experience is a subjective one because you are experiencing the object yourself. You are subjected to realizing it.

Even any absolute truth becomes a temporal one over time. I have found that the only absolute truth there is is that the only thing that never changes is change itself.

I also jump into first group thinking to get by playing material life in 3-D. My axe comes out in my life to give me focus and direction sometimes or to help me get a grip on something by reducing its size so I can handle it.

I think a lot of people, maybe most or all actually do jump back and forth between the two approaches. That's when you catch them in contradictions. Contradicting yourself just means you've swung around your perspective from one groups approach to the others.

That's a part of being multi-perspective or being able to see more facets of the whole.

Consistency just means you are staying in one stance of perspective.

I know I have called you on contradictions before swami and that's only because you say things like inconsistencies mean one is lying and maybe by my pointing it out, you can see for yourself from your own experience that, it really just comes from shifting your point of view on something.

That's a good thing for the person experiencing it. You get to see and realize more.

What ever. My intent with this is to just to share another perspective on it. There are as many as there are people to have them. That's pretty cool.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: orechron]
    #4542169 - 08/16/05 01:54 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

logic is beautiful


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4542185 - 08/16/05 02:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think we all need to get together in a circle, take off our pants, and sing the penis song! Do you have a penis? Oh come on, I know you do. Let's all sing about our happy friend down below, our penis!


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4542204 - 08/16/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I woke up this morning with a bad hangover and my penis was missing again. This happens all hte time; it's detachable. This comes in handy a lot of the time; I can leave it home when I thnk it's gonna get me in trouble, or I can rent it out when I don't need it. But now and then I go to a party, get drunk, and the next morning, I can't, for the life of me, remember what I did with it. First I looked around my apartment, and I couldn't find it, so I called up the place hwere the party was, they hadn't seen it either. I asked them to check the medicine cabinet , 'ccause for some reason, I leave it there sometimes, but no this time.
So I told them if it pops up to let me know. I called a few people who were at the party, but they were no help either.
I was starting to get desperate I really don't like being without my penis for too long. It makes me feel like less of a man, and I really hate having to sit down every time I take a leak.

After a few hours of searching the house, and calling everyone I could think of, I was starting to get very depressed, so I went to the Kiev and ate breakfast. Then as I walked down Second Avenue, toward St Mark's Place, where all those people sell used books and other junk on the street, I saw my penis lying on a blanket next to a broken toaster oven - some guy was selling it! I had to but it off him. He wanted 22 bucks, but I talked him down to 17. I took it home, washed it off, and put it back on. I was happy again: complete. People sometimes tell me I should get it permanently attached, but I don't know. Even though sometimes it's a pain in the ass, I like having a detachable penis.


Also, for those of you suggesting that logic and spirituality are different paths with the same goal (maturity), with logic explaining the world we know and spirituality explaining the world "beyond", what happens when logic refutes spiritual discoveries or holdings?


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4542358 - 08/16/05 02:48 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Very well then. What direction does strictly spirituality with minimum logical maturity lead to as well? Obviously, both extremes of directions that we've brought up, aren't going to lead a person to a healthy situation, intra and interpersonally.

Question for all:
Is either one of the following any "more" spiritually mature than the other?

A:
1) Skepticism of unsupported claims

2) Combination of an open mind with critical thinking

3) Attempts to repeat experimental results.

4) Requires testability

5) Seeks out falsifying data that would disprove a hypothesis

6) Uses descriptive language

7) Performs controlled experiments

8) Self-correcting

9) Relies on evidence and reason

10) Makes no claim for absolute or certain knowledge

11) Produces useful knowledge

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B:
1) Has a negative attitude to skepticism

2) Does not require critical thinking

3) Does not require experimental repeatability

4) Does not require tests

5) Does not accept falsifying data that would disprove a hypothesis

6) Uses vague language

7) Relies on anecdotal evidence

8) No self-correction

9) Relies on belief and faith

10) Makes absolute claims

11) Produces no useful knowledge


After you've answered that question, let's then think about the answer to this question:
Which of the two partisans of characteristics are more commonly exhibited in those who express adherance and devotion to spirituality and philosophy - be they in this forum or otherwise?




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Negative on Spirituality? [Re: Swami]
    #4542511 - 08/16/05 03:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I was recently accused of driving seekers away from this forum. There are Zen stories about a man sweeping the courtyard for years before he can even speak to the Master. That is a true seeker. Most applaud those stories as long as they remain a story. They want to change without putting forth any effort or sacrifice.




Why not put those years of effort into looking for his own enlightenment rather than waiting for someone else to speak to him about their's?

The problem with spirituality is that seekers will take the word of anyone without experiencing it for themselves. And how will they know its true? How do you know the Buddha wasn't just drunk and high? That could be why he was so relaxed, after all.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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