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InvisibleEgo Death
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Posts: 10,447
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4694900 - 09/22/05 01:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whats the odds that two friends experienced the exact same 'waking hallucination' as you say it.

Besides we were playing football so theres no doubt in my mind that we were on the ball. :grin:


Its far more likely to be E.T than anything else.  Go ahead yeah just a balloon, just mass hallucination, just a million witnesses lying - yeah fuckin right, its obviously the thing that no ego wants to admit A SUPERIOR RACE, be afraid, be very afraid - people like security, they like to feel secure even though you could die at any moment for any reason.

Look at this world look at how life works, I mean from a 3rd person perspective not biased with your beliefs of creation or whatever.  Of course theres life out there and of course we are not the most intelligent species.  Of course they can come here because there will be some that have discovered space travel, we are close ourselves!  Space is just the next ocean we must learn to cross.  What are the silver discs with light and sound that people have seen close-up?

They have been seen by every culture and every age of man, unlike myths which can vary so much.

People see et as a threat thus its easier to say, we don't know what it is, so we don't want to know... :eek:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4694941 - 09/22/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the Earth is flat and other predominant beliefs that can be shown, in time, to be wrong

What you're not getting is that this is how science is SUPPOSED to work. Science makes theories based on the available information.

When the net sum of available information about the shape of the Earth was what we could see, the theory was that the Earth was flat. This was, at the time, a good theory because it explained all the observations.

This theory, like every good theory, made predictions. One prediction was that if the Earth was flat, then two poles stuck vertically into the ground at two distant locations would each cast the same length shadow at the same time of day.

This experiment was actually done and it was found that the two poles cast different length shadows. The only explanation for this experimental result was that the Earth was not flat. This contradicted the best then-available theory.

So, as required by the Scientific Method, the theory was discarded in favor of a new theory that explained all the original observations AND the new discoveries; that is, the Earth is round and so big as to appear flat.

Continue this cycle of theory, experiment to support/refute the theory, adjust the theory in light of new knowledge, and repeat.

Science was doing exactly what it should when it went from flat Earth to round Earth. If evidence in the future is found to support a square Earth, then science will abandon the outdated round Earth theory in favor of the better square Earth theory. This is the Scientific Method.

Deriding science because it self-adjusts in the light of new evidence is like complaining that your car goes faster when you step on the gas.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 09:44 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4695055 - 09/22/05 02:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Its far more likely to be E.T than anything else.

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the vast majority of UFO observations being hoaxes or explained and only a tiny few unexplained.

I'd agree with you if even one out of all the people who claim to have been abducted and had various orifices probed came back with an alien bacteria, fiber, or other hard evidence.

its obviously the thing that no ego wants to admit A SUPERIOR RACE

There you go again harping on something that has no bearing whatever on whether or not we're being visited by aliens.

I have no problem admitting that there are creatures in the universe with far more advanced technology than we have. I am all but certain that there are.

Read: http: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4362615/an//page/0/vc/1

But if these hyper-advanced creatures exist, they would hardly be interested in this backward little planet that can barely make it to its moon and back.

Why would such an advanced race be interested in us? And even if they were interested in us, why do they hide? This makes no sense.

You should stop pointing out the emotional state of the skeptics and start giving us logical answers to the questions we've been posing. My state of mind, my disbelief, my fear, my <fill in the blank> has NOTHING to do with the logic of the arguments we're discussing.

You cannot support your case by telling me that my pants are ugly. You support your case by answering the questions I pose with explanations that makes sense. You support your case by providing hard evidence; saying that you see them every night is not hard evidence in the same way that my little nephew telling me he once saw the Tooth Fairy is not hard evidence. Maybe he really did see her, but with only his story to go by, I tend to doubt it.

They have been seen by every culture and every age of man, unlike myths which can vary so much

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the previous paragraph. You say every culture has seen these things, but you don't provide a link to where anthropologists or archaeologists show evidence of this statement.

You provide links to web sites that take a large ancient Egyptian painting, excerpt one 10cm x 10cm area that looks like an ET with big buggy eyes and a phaser gun, and then say SEE, IT'S ET.

When an archaeologist critiques the web site, his first observation is that ET is facing you in the painting while Egyptian paintings exhibit people facing sideways to you. He then goes on to zoom out and show the entire painting (which the UFO proponents' web site never shows for reasons of deceit) and it becomes obvious that the ET with buggy eyes is actually just the legs of a large pot on a stand.

All of the links you've provided so far are of this caliber.

If you provided links to bona-fide anthropology web sites supporting your claim that "[UFOs] have been seen by every culture and every age of man", then skeptics like me will pay attention.

Until you do that, your claims fall into the same category as my nephew's and this has nothing to do with my emotional state.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 11:27 PM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4695105 - 09/22/05 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
When the net sum of available information about the shape of the Earth was what we could see, the theory was that the Earth was flat. This was, at the time, a good theory because it explained all the observations.





Therefore we must never make the mistake of assuming that contemporary science represents absolute truth, because science by definition can be nothing more then theorizing based on a limited number of observations.

Similarly "logic" itself must be assumed to be a working methodology, but cannot be viewed as a correct road to absolute truth.

At the moment, just like the Flat Earth not long ago, "logic" serves us well. In the future it may however need to be discarded in favor of a methodology which is closer to the "truth" as we understand it then.
Perhaps, after all, the universe shaped itself to meet the logic we applied to it, and will that effect only take us so far.

All we have is assumptions, and the degree of respect we give to people of differing opinions.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Asante]
    #4695158 - 09/22/05 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Therefore we must never make the mistake of assuming that contemporary science represents absolute truth, because science by definition can be nothing more then theorizing based on a limited number of observations.

Of course. But sometimes the quantity of observations is so great that a theory is considered (almost) fact. For example, the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki makes it EXTREMELY likely that atoms exist, even though they are theoretical objects that have never been seen.

Given the volumes of evidence accumulating for over a century that supports the Atomic Theory, anyone proposing that atoms don't exist will not be taken seriously unless they can produce some very persuasive evidence.

This goes for alien visitation. Since virtually every observation has been exposed as a hoax or explained as a natural or human-made phenomenon, for an alien visitation proponent to be taken seriously, they will have to come up with some serious evidence, and stories don't rise to that level.

All we have is assumptions

We have a lot more than assumptions. We have evidence and sound, reasonable conclusions (pending new discoveries) that make sense in light of the evidence.

and the degree of respect we give to people of differing opinions

While I agree that everyone's opinions should be respected, this has nothing to do with the soundness of someone's reasoning or logic. If someone I respect says the Earth is flat, I will clobber them with a pile of logic and sound reasoning that shows their statement to be absurd.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4695277 - 09/22/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:


This goes for alien visitation. Since virtually every observation has been exposed as a hoax or explained as a natural or human-made phenomenon





Proof? Links? Data? Evidence? Please. Thanks.
My data suggests a very different explanation. Thousands upon thousands of observations remain 'unsolved and unexplained'. That's a far cry from virtually every observation exposed as a hoax
And what about the Brazilian government, Russian government, and several others.. who have openly admitted to having many encounters with flying crafts of amazing flight capabilities and 'unknown origins'.


--------------------


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4695378 - 09/22/05 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For example, the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki makes it EXTREMELY likely that atoms exist




No! That's the thing: perhaps the universe formed itself to meet the expected results. Or, alternatively: atoms were proposed to be the nature of matter based on observations. This helps us predict stuff that happens to come true.

"if we shoot unidentified energyform *neutron* into a large enough pile of the unidentified energyform we call *Uranium 235* we get a surge of the former energy as well as the unidentified energy we call Photons and the thingie we call atom multiplies by two.

Perhaps Atoms are tiny Boddhisatvas who, when offered the Holy Blessing, burst radiantly into a gush of enlightenment.
Perhaps the energy of the "atomic" bomb does not come from fission but rather is it caused because one "atom" is turned into another and in doing so a second one is pulled out of another dimension.
The "atomic" bomb then is a migration of an energy from one dimension into the other, not fission of thought-up "atoms".

Our reality might be entirely hallucinatory. It's not even sure there is a "you" to predict something.

It may be nothing we are connected to has any bearing in a deeper "Ultimate Reality". Ask Stephen Hawking. Or rather, ask yourself if you're perfectly honest.

Quote:

All we have is assumptions

We have a lot more than assumptions. We have evidence and sound, reasonable conclusions (pending new discoveries) that make sense in light of the evidence.




Sound, reasonable assumptions you mean. After all the Flat Earth was a sound, reasonable conclusion back in the day. We can't *conclude* anything because we are not at it's conclusion. As long as you're traveling TO Egypt, you're not IN Egypt.
Ask the pioneers of any branch of science and they will thell you we're not nearly there yet.

Quote:

I will clobber them with a pile of logic and sound reasoning that shows their statement to be absurd.




I believe you will clobber them mercilessly with Logic, but perhaps Logic itself is flawed. Logic may be a camel that will only take us so far before it suddenly drops dead and leaves us in the midst of the desert. Then what?

All this clobbering with contemporary logic might in 100 years be seen as the persecution of the Higher Level of Understanding which came into being in the early 21th century.

Perhaps you have an error in thought methodology (this being Logic) which you repeat to the people around you over and over. That does not make it true, unless that logic fails too :crazy2:

Accept the small but real possibility that you are wrong in everything you think the truth is.

Perhaps the Universe is what you sincerely believe it to be. That would mean spacetravel isn't limited by the speed of light but by the narrowmindedness of scientists, and once freed of the burden of E = MC2 the Universe with all its distant galaxies will open itself up for our exploration.
That certainly defies logic.
Or does it?


--------------------
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Edited by Asante (09/22/05 03:42 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695640 - 09/22/05 04:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This goes for alien visitation. Since virtually every observation has been exposed as a hoax or explained as a natural or human-made phenomenon




Proof? Links? Data? Evidence? Please. Thanks.

Alright:

http://www.bluebookarchive.org

Project Blue Book investigated nearly 13,000 UFO reports. All but six percent were found to be birds, airplanes, balloons, and other man-made things, natural phenomena like the New Mexico phenomenon I detailed a few posts ago, and a bunch of hoaxes.

who have openly admitted to having many encounters with flying crafts of amazing flight capabilities and 'unknown origins

A thing of 'unknown origins' is of unknown origins; it is not ET. Why must you insist on jumping to this conclusion over and over again when the only justified conclusion is that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS?

Thousands upon thousands of observations remain 'unsolved and unexplained'

Now it's your turn. Sources to thousands and thousands of "unsolved and unexplained" observations, please? And a link to some guy's web site doesn't count. In order for a case to be 'unsolved and unexplained' in this context means that it was investigated by qualified investigators and they were unable to explain it, not that some guy shot a few pics and doesn't know what it is.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4695656 - 09/22/05 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

>>>Science makes theories based on the available information.

Which is exactly what I have done. I know the discs are real, me and 2 friends saw one close-up. I realised I wasn't the only one. People of every age and culture have seen the same circular, light covered discs and some people have even met the occupants (usually against their will which is understandable).

The fact that you haven't seen one up-close would make your science naturally different to mine. This I accept. I just refuse to withhold or lie so that I fit better into society.

>>>harping on something that has no bearing whatever on whether or not we're being visited by aliens

You obviously don't understand the psycology involved here then.

Fear is the most predominant factor that keeps this a secret. The government knows that the 'sheep' of society is not ready to hear the truth (think about it religion everything).

Equally the individual person would much rather believe that they don't exist because they are a threat to ones safety. If they live up to their reports then the military can't even stop one from getting you if it wants to. Who wants to goto bed at night KNOWING they could easily be abducted???

I sure as hell don't but I can't deny what I've seen.

>>>I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the vast majority of UFO observations being hoaxes or explained and only a tiny few unexplained.


Please explain Travis Walton, Barney and Betty Hill incidents then...


--------------------


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4695682 - 09/22/05 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thats not an independant enquiry, blue book is a government project.

The government would blatently be biased either way.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Asante]
    #4695688 - 09/22/05 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps Atoms are tiny Boddhisatvas

You can make up anything you like. The available evidence will still show you to be wrong, and since the available evidence is all we have to base our belief of how the universe works on (unless you prefer to use fantasy) then you have to conclude that, v-e-r-y likely, atoms are not Boddhisatvas.

Serious question: If physicists used the Atoms are tiny Boddhisatvas theory, do you believe the atomic bombs the US dropped on Japan would have worked?

perhaps the universe formed itself to meet the expected results

While this is possible, it is not reasonable to come to this conclusion. Doing so is like believing that rain occurs when sweating albatrosses fly overhead and not when water condenses. It's possible, but it's absurd to believe that.

What if I told you there's a spaghetti monster in your closet and he's getting ready to attack you. This is possible, but no reasonable person will so much as turn around to look.

You're arguing that somehow the Atomic Theory is totally wrong, but this makes as much sense as saying that the Condensed Water Rain Theory is totally wrong and rain really is the result of sweaty albatrosses, we just don't know it.

Geez... :shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 10:04 PM)


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4695690 - 09/22/05 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Winston Churchill famously stated in a letter that they are real and he wants to know what they are.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4695726 - 09/22/05 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thats not an independant enquiry, blue book is a government project

The government would blatently be biased either way.


There you go again attacking the source of the evidence rather than refuting the evidence. This is par for the course on the Shroomery and is no better than an ad hominem.

What if I stipulate that the government is a nasty, biased, lying bunch of jerks? Granted, they are. I agree.

That has nothing to do with the validity of the evidence presented by PBB.

Do you see why you have no credibility? If you cared about the truth, you would show me why PBB's data is invalid rather than call them names. You are unable to do this and so, in frustration, take recourse in calling them names and assume that those names somehow make their data invalid.

They don't and the data will stand as valid until and unless you refute it. Calling it 'blatently biased' without backing up that claim does nothing for your argument.

And by the way, I'm still waiting for sources to "thousands and thousands of unsolved and unexplained observations". This is my second request.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 05:27 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4695733 - 09/22/05 05:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Winston Churchill famously stated in a letter that they are real and he wants to know what they are.

I think UNIDENTIFIED flying objects are real too, and I also want to know what they are.

This is why I've followed up on a bunch and found reasonable explanations (see the New Mexico incident a few posts back), hoaxes (see Prophet Yahweh exposed as a liar in a recent thread), and a very few genuinely unexplained (means you don't know what it is) sightings.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4695790 - 09/22/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

People of every age and culture have seen the same circular, light covered discs

And almost all of them have been explained even though they "couldn't possibly be from Earth". See New Mexico a few posts ago...

and some people have even met the occupants (usually against their will which is understandable)

...but none of them managed to come back with an alien fiber or bacteria that rubbed off on their clothing...

Fear is the most predominant factor that keeps this a secret. The government knows that the 'sheep' of society is not ready to hear the truth (think about it religion everything)

Serious question 1: Do you believe that every government on Earth, including the ones that hate the US, is also hiding HARD evidence like an alien bacteria or a crashed ship?

Serious question 2: Does it makes sense to you that the government is so inept at keeping highly damaging information like the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo secret but somehow has managed to keep hard evidence of alien visitation secret for 50 years? Not one single piece of alien metal, bacteria, or fiber has ever been leaked to reporters. Does this makes sense to you?

Please explain Travis Walton, Barney and Betty Hill incidents then...

I don't know what these are, but I'll bet they all boil down to a wild story and nothing more.

Provide links, and I'll take a look.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 05:37 PM)


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696282 - 09/22/05 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Those questions are rubbish. No I don't believe every government has crashed discs etc blah

I believe if they knew, then they would not tell the public and would probably even actively try to hide the truth with things such as blue book.

Quote:

Diploid said:
I don't know what these are, but I'll bet they all boil down to a wild story and nothing more.

Provide links, and I'll take a look.




No research yourself, I can't be bothered. I would not convince you. bye.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696325 - 09/22/05 07:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The available evidence will still show you to be wrong,.. it is not reasonable...reasonable




You're really clinging on to that logic, aren't you?  :smirk:


--------------------
CDC  COVID  SELF-CHECKER  :syringe:  COVID  MAIN  THREAD  #3
Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
Strengthen your friendship ties - and exchange more favors and advice !

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personal Bitcoin gifts w/o strings attached are very welcome at:
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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696455 - 09/22/05 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nice try. Project Bluebook was a debunking campaign by the US government to discredit contactees and deny the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

Try this one - http://www.ufoalert.com/


A thing of 'unknown origins' is of unknown origins; it is not ET. Why must you insist on jumping to this conclusion over and over again when the only justified conclusion is that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS?


Correct me if I'm wrong.. but UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. It it is proven to be birds, airplanes, balloons, other man-made things, and natural phenomena.. then it's not a UFO. It becomes an IFO.

Now when you see a UFO, and then communicate telepathically with the drivers, then that too becomes an IFO. It's an alien flying a spacecraft.

UFO would be like when I see that spacecraft, but don't communicate with them.. so they are unidentified. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the flight patterns of their ships, and birds, planes, balloons, other man-made things, and natural phenomena does not move like that.


If you refuse to look at the evidence, I can't make you. There's millions of credible testimonies, and personal experience.. posted all over the web. Pictures from governments. All a click or two away. I've read most of it, and realize that somebody is trying to cover it up.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Ego Death]
    #4696709 - 09/22/05 08:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Those questions are rubbish.

Is your position so weak that it cannot withstand questions asked in a good-faith search for the truth?

No I don't believe every government has crashed discs etc blah

Do you believe that ANY other government besides the US has crashed alien ships?

Does it make sense to you that the US government can't keep Abu Ghraib and Gitmo abuses secret but somehow can manage to keep alien visitation secret for decades?

I believe if they knew, then they would not tell the public

What would that gain them? If they told, they'd be able to get mega funding for research. By keeping quiet (which doesn't seem possible given the constant leaks from Abu Ghraib and Gitmo) all they do is make it more difficult to get secret funding.

There has to be a motivation for keeping such a big secret; what is it?

Quote:

Diploid said:
I don't know what these are, but I'll bet they all boil down to a wild story and nothing more.

Provide links, and I'll take a look.




No research yourself, I can't be bothered. I would not convince you. bye.

I did research myself. I didn't find anything, that's why I'm asking you for help. This is my third request.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 11:16 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Asante]
    #4696719 - 09/22/05 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You're really clinging on to that logic, aren't you?

Thanks for the psychoanalysis.

Now, can you answer the questions I asked or are you going to critique my shirt next?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/23/05 12:55 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
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