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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
techno magic
    #452662 - 11/09/01 11:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ok let me begin by saying that although i am typing away on a computer keyboard in one of the worlds biggest cities I plan to live my life in nature. i will spend the next few years learning the skills i will need to survive, to grow and find food, basic carpentry to build stuff and how to diagnose and treat all sorts of stuff. chinese medicine, acupuncture and chi kung and that sort of stuff, keep myself superhealthy and look after my friends and family. then go live somewhere nice, seaside riverside forest mountain i'm not sure, leaning towards the mountains now since that's where the air is cleanest and seeing how much we breathe air seems to possibly be the most important thing...along with breathing technique! and since i want to live forever maybe i'll need that extra pure air. I love the earth in places where it has not been touched by humans, i think the answers to the greatest questions in life can be found in nature.

ok so i'm rambling.

TECHNO MAGIC as the title says. there's a big technology backlash going on. i'm with it and a part of it but i think sometimes we talk a lot of shit and don't really look at what's going on. people talk this crap about "science is flawed" when they haven't studied any science since primary school or they're just not really paying attention or something but HELLO look at the machine in front of your face. look at how complex it is. all those little parts all that electricity flowing around those insanely intricate circuits...and going around the world on a "world wide web" world wide web of what? of little "waves" we're told...on a mobile phone, a 10cm long piece of plastic and a few wires, you can "call" someone on the opposite side of the planet, an inconceivable number of kilometres or miles away, and talk to them! have a conversation! how does the sound get there? "waves", invisible waves (of what?) bouncing from your little phone to a satellite dish to a satellite orbiting the planet back down to another satellite dish and into your friend's phone. and back and forth about as quick as you can snap your fingers.

last week the NASA spacecraft "odyssey" went into orbit around mars, the hubble telescope is still travelling through space sending back unbelievable pictures of strange things off in space. how did they aim the odyssey in just the right direction? mathematics.

people like to talk about magic. i like to talk about magic. imagine if we found some total jungle-boy amazon tribe kid who's never been out of the jungle or seen or heard anything from outside his little world, sneak up behind him and whack him on the head or shoot him with a tranquiliser dart and then he wakes up here in TOKYO!!!! in shibuya or akihabara technology town and he sees trains and airoplanes and computers and all this shit he would say oh help me god i'm in hell and there's all this insane magical shit going on everywhere!!! and he would be right!! well not about the hell but ABOUT IT BEING MAGIC!!!!!

mathematics, physics, chemistry (alchemy!)...powerful forms of magic which unfortunately require far more discipline, time and effort than most people are prepared to put in.


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #452787 - 11/09/01 01:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

First some clarifcation, mobile phones utilize waves of light, like radio that are simply not visable to the human eye. And the hubble has a more or less stationary orbit around earth, it doesn't travel through space Voyager... the point of having it 'up there' is to get rid of the obscuring lense of the atmosphere. The magic of the hubble is simply how powerful its maginfying lenses are. Even though NASA is working on a much larger, more powerful telescope as we speak which will make Hubble obsolete. But this knowledge really fits into your argument - the amount of information concerning the world and the universe that modern man is expected to assimilate and comprehend is far more comprehensive than the state in which the brain itself orignally evolved. That is not to say that the human mind is incapable of doing so, only that the information uses up spaces for other more traditional kinds of information like survival skills (which civilized human beings have almost no comprehension of). It is the shere quantity of data concerning the world we live in (not to mention the innumerable schools of thought to which all of the pieces of the whole are scattered) that makes all of our conviences steadily become more and more inconvienent to possess. A good example is the automobile. Yes, automobiles now run faster with higher performance values than they did fifty years ago, but the modern automobile is almost impossible for the owner to 'work' on. Not only are there cylinders, gaskets, filters and flanges as in traditional cars, but now we have microchips, computers and minaturized parts as well which are so small that they can hardly be worked upon by a human being. They require machines to fix the machines, which required certified technicians to operate. As we minaturize all of our technology, condense it into smaller and smaller units, we are forced to place more and more /trust/ into the machines themselves. We cannot trust ourselves as we once did because we have very little ability to manipulate the technology at a basic level.

A hunter gatherer who goes out hunting has trust in himself to be able to fashion a spear if his should break, to fashion a bowstring if his should become wet, to fashion an arrowhead if his should chip. But we no longer have that ability in the modern age, we cannot say that we have trust in ourselves because we have so little connection with our tools and their creation-maintence. If my computer were to suddenly begin to smoke and I were to loose all of this text, I would have to take the computer to a specialist who would probably only be able to identify the parts I would need to replace (not craft them him or her self) . The technician is himself dependent upon a manufacturer who is dependent upon the part specifications stored inside a computer matrix.

What this means is that our methods for survival are less and less dependent upon ourselves, which is something that breeds into the human mind a sense of ever increasing anxiety. And unsuprisingly, as you so adeptly point out, we abstract ourselves completely from the technological process and assign the title of 'Magic' to the technology itself. I see a picture on my computer screen, but how does it get there? Who knows, it just does - magic. How did you conjur flame from black sand? Magic. When we observe an effect which we can understand, but cannot understand the process by which the effect came to be...we call it magic.

The progress of technology has far exceeded the human capability to make sense of what is going on within technology - save for a few highly specalized individuals scattered about. Most of humanity couldn't fix a modern automobile if it broke down. Most of humanity couldn't fix a television if it broke. Most of humanity couldn't defuse a bomb if they came across one. The information which relates and inter-relates to all of these devices is locked away behind the veil of 'unimpeded progress'. And because we do not understand what devices are doing, nor how, their use has unforseen ramifications. Automobiles produce smog which clouds cities and is a major factor in the aggrivation of heart disease. Nuclear Power Plants produce waste which we have no other use for so we bury it deep in the ground. Our computers become obsolete within a week and we throw them out to clog our landfills with highly toxic rare elements. This is our notion of convenience becoming steadily more and more /inconvenient/.

Do not mistake me, I'm not an anti-technologist. Technology is as much a part of humanity as language and indeed, thought. But 'progress' in the manner that we now live within is only 'progress' towards a disaster - the regulation of which we are steadily pushing out of our hands, day by day. There is nothing evil about technology, it is merely a tool. And a tool is only as evil as the hands that wield it.

No one is suprised when havoc rains after you've given a box of hand-grenades to a troop of Bonobo Chimps.

Ish


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: techno magic [Re: Ishmael]
    #453540 - 11/10/01 01:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

damn i had this picture of the brave hubble telescope boldly going where no telescope has gone before...drifting off beyond the solar system or something. oh well.

mobile phones transmit light waves? hang on light just means electromagnetic radiation right?


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OfflineTimeleech
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Registered: 10/04/01
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Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #454664 - 11/11/01 04:17 AM (15 years, 29 days ago)

yep. Electromagnetic radiation.

Actually, most peoples explanation of how various technology works could easily be exchanged by the word "magic" without loosing any clarity or meaning. Such small is the common man's knowledge about his world.

We have a way with words that somewhat fools us into thinking something is understood. ESP, Extra Sensory Perception, it's magic. Gravity currently seems pretty much like magic to scientists (as far as I know). Most people would be hard pressed if they were to explain how a television works, much less repair it (as pointed out earlier), for that we would hire a magician.

Do you think witches were working magic way back? I think they knew a bit of plant chemistry (in other terms than we do now of course).

I think it's a nice piece of magic that I am able to talk to you people all over the world from here in front of my magic screen by hitting my magick plastic dohickey in front of me. :)


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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InvisibleZeus
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Registered: 06/08/00
Posts: 187
Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #454692 - 11/11/01 05:54 AM (15 years, 29 days ago)

unfortunately the "typey box" in front of you thats so complicated is all broken down to 0's and 1's in the end.
whooo-- what wizard came up with these spells of 0's & 1's
;-)


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" I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am. "

"Experience is the meaning to life" -me


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OfflineDankVudu
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Registered: 06/05/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #454717 - 11/11/01 08:24 AM (15 years, 29 days ago)

>mobile phones transmit light waves? hang on light just means electromagnetic radiation right?

Yes, and this electromagnetic radiation supposedly causes cancer... much like being in the sun too long...


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Registered: 05/08/01
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Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #456242 - 11/12/01 07:13 PM (15 years, 28 days ago)

In reply to:

damn i had this picture of the brave hubble telescope boldly going where no telescope has gone before...drifting off beyond the solar system or something. oh well.


hey, don't give up hope yet!  :cool: i dug up some info on the space probe pioneer 10.  i've been keepin' an eye on it for the last couple years.  it was launched over 25 years ago and left our solar system back in the 80's!  it's battery power is almost out however, but they are still receiving some info from it.  i don't remember the figures, but the amount of time it took for the messages to be relayed from the probe were incredible.  following is an excerpt from http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/sso/cool/pioneer10/mission/

Now the most remote man-made object launched into the cosmos, Pioneer 10 is approaching nearly 7 billion miles from the Sun. It became the first artifact to "leave the Solar System" on June 13, 1983 when it passed beyond the farthest known planet. It is now searching for the heliopause, exploring the very edges of interstellar space as it drifts onward in mankind's first journey to the stars.

Along with its sister ship Pioneer 11, Pioneer 10 carries a plaque with messages designed to make contact with possible alien civilizations. The late Dr. Carl Sagan helped devise the plaques that bear the illustration of a man and a woman as well as a diagram identifying earth's location in the galaxy. Like a message in a bottle, these plaques will journey out into interstellar space possibly to be found one day by an extraterrestrial civilization.



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··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...


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OfflineD_Tox
Boddhisattva

Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 239
Loc: Lab 23
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: techno magic [Re: geokills]
    #456600 - 11/13/01 12:31 AM (15 years, 28 days ago)

The late Dr. Carl Sagan was also an avid marijuana smoker.


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-----------------------
D_Tox

to understand other people….to be aware
to understand animals….to be a decent person
to understand plants….. to be a refined individual
to understand the mushroom…to be enlightened


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #460893 - 11/16/01 11:16 PM (15 years, 24 days ago)

ok i'm replying to myself because what i want to ask is definately related to this thread.

does anyone else think that perhaps huge leaps in human evolution will happen SOON and be largely technology-driven?

I mean there's always people going on about an "awakening" and I think there's a lot to that, i can see more and more people waking up to the bullshit going down, seems like the more i wake up myself the more people i meet that are waking up as well, to varying degrees. Wow i hope i meet some genuinely awakened people, or just one person that is truly awake, in my lifetime. but anyway i'm getting lost again, i'm talking about technology.

now i read in some newspaper recently about good old stephen hawking and how he reckons that genetic engineering will probably be vital to the survival of the human species. how it might be possible to discover and isolate the genes responsible for agression, different areas of mental capacity and manipulate them to produce peaceful and brilliant thinkers...also growing and replacing organs to prolong life indefinately....ok so to link that up with the previous paragraph isn't it quite possible that with advanced genetic engineering, the constantly talked about cheap infinite non polluting energy sources (free energy means lots of free time right?) and extremely long lifetimes, future "humans" will reach previously impossible levels of enlightenment and understanding?

i mean this stuff is scarey but it's not necessarily (got it!) wrong or bad in any way, it could certainly be done badly with horrific consequences but you know nothing ever stays the same right? i'm not going to try and stop them, are you?


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Registered: 03/15/01
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Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #464641 - 11/20/01 04:42 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

This is a really fascinating thread. I have no idea what's going to happen in the future, but I can't see a way we can keep going how we are for much longer. As Ishmael said, we're becoming increasingly dependent on a more and more diffuse network of other people and machines. This leaves the species more and more vulnerable to disaster because the elimination of a single element low on the chain would be disasterous and could cause the whole thing to collapse. Oil comes to mind. What would humanity do if all of a sudden we couldn't get oil anymore? Have the population would probably starve because trucks couldn't get food to them. I think something like this will end up happening before long. In order to escape this dead end of evolution (increasing dependence on technology), i think we'll have to progress in the spiritual direction. Flesh can only take us so far.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: techno magic [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #464907 - 11/20/01 09:19 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

yeaha sudden oil shortage would really mess things up for a while wouldn't it! remember Mad Max 2? The "road warrior"....hardcore, surely it doesn't have to be that bad.

One thing that interests me about your post is in the last two sentences: " i think we'll have to progress in the spiritual direction. Flesh can only take us so far. "

do you think the body is irrelevant in "spiritual" developement? because recently I have come to think that relaxing and purifying the flesh is not only relevant but perhaps necessary...

relating that thought to this thread it seems to me that our current civilisation has excelled in manipulating external energies while previous cultures appear to have mastered the energies within the body. our scientists have mastered electricity to bring us the masterpiece of the computer while the Daoist scientists of ancient china discovered and researched the circuitry of the body, what we now call "meridians", paths along which energy flows which can be manipulated with little needles, heat, pressure point massage and meditation....

Perhaps the future will show us that our machines and technology does not need to be made from metal or plastic, torn up from the earth and burned....maybe in the future our machines will be organic?


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: techno magic [Re: Traveller]
    #465529 - 11/21/01 12:30 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

The spirit cannot exist without a body, the two go hand in hand. We need our body to feed the spirit, and we need technology to allow the spirit to flourish (its hard to find inner peace when you're fighting for survival every minute of the day). But in today's culture (most western culture at least) we've completely ignored the spiritual aspect and focused exclusively on material advances. I think we need to find a balance between the two.

That's really interesting what you said about organic machines. Perhaps someday we'll get to the point where we can manipulate energy without having to go through the metal and plasic intermediate. I think the eastern religions were really going in the right direction, its too bad western culture had to go and overrun everything. But I guess that's the nature of dominator culture in the first place.


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