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OfflineUnagipie
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Does terrorism work?
    #4525924 - 08/12/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Recently, the batalions of Palestinian militants and the Palestinians themselves have viewed the Gaza pullout positively, as any Palestinian logically would. However, they are claiming that the pull out would have never have happened had it not been for the campaign of armed resistance and suicide bombings that have been raging since 2000.

So, would Israel be engaging in the Gaza pullout if the second intifada never transpired at all?


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4526038 - 08/12/05 12:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately, yes terrorism works. Nagasaki and Hiroshima (as another example) terrorized the Japanese into unconditional surrender where they were previously offering surrender agreements with certain conditions.

Any government must have a certain degree of at least tacit support and compliance from the populace to continue it's course of action. Terrorism is used to undermine the support of a people for the actions of their rulers. Non-state aligned terrorists are aware of historical examples and are aware that those who took such actions claim to be moral actors. These two factors (utility and morality) serve to embolden and justify the actions of others who would use terror as a tactic.

Disclaimer: I am not arguing one way or the other that the use of nuclear weapons on Japan was justified from a strategic point of view (that is, to limit American casualties). That is not the point of my statements on this matter.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4526523 - 08/12/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If done properly, it can work, or if done improperly it can backfire and produce opposite of the intended result. But terrorism isn't limited to terrorists by any stretch of the imagination; as Prosgeo pointed out, dropping nukes on civilians in Japan would be an act of terrorism, since its purpose was really to inflict such terror that the Japanese would surrender unconditionally. Terrorism is simply violence appealing to the most primal fear of humans, and if timed when the people are already down and losing courage then terrorism can be a massive success.

If the people at rising to their peak though, terrorism may only create a surge of patriotism and violence. While part of any balanced war, terrorism must be force fed to them at the right time; mainly, when they're questioning why they should go on anyway. Such massive casualities and fear can usually push such people right over the edge.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Ravus]
    #4526777 - 08/12/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yet another thread that seems to be devolving into a navel-gazing exercise in removing any meaningful definition from a word.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4526794 - 08/12/05 04:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yes. Terrorism worked for Israel for decades. Now that terrorists from the Palestinian side are striking blows back, they're compromising with them instead of continuing to mercilessly oppress them and just send them fleeing to neighboring Arab countries. That doesn't work anymore.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4526808 - 08/12/05 04:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ter?ror?ism
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.



http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/t/t0122600.html

Let's not add more to terrorism than what it is. Terrorism is not simply a tactic used by crazy Muslims; it's an entire method of warfare designed to create terror.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Ravus]
    #4527246 - 08/12/05 06:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

All war is designed to create terror and demoralize the enemy.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4527286 - 08/12/05 06:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If terror works why does the war on drugs not work? The war on drugs uses terror like any other war, but has failed so badly it is all pointless torture, bondage, and killing.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4527333 - 08/12/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think the term "War" on drugs is a metaphor. You all know what that is don't you?


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4527361 - 08/12/05 07:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think the term "War on Drugs" is not a metaphor, it is ruthless, hypocritical, government propaganda. The first public use on record of the term can be traced back to the criminal president, Richard Nixon.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4527400 - 08/12/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

When you say "terrorism" do you mean terrible actions used against civilian populations by any actor or only by a smaller and weaker guerilla force?

If you meant terrible actions undertaken by a smaller and weaker force then yes, terrorism does work. Name me one instance where a major power was involved in fighting an insurgency that used questionable actions and the major power won. The guerilla force could never directly face or militarily defeat the major power, but they pester them enough that the major power leaves and cuts its losses after a while. When the major power leaves the field of battle, the small weaker force wins.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4527758 - 08/12/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
All war is designed to create terror and demoralize the enemy.




Not necessarily. Terrorism is just one aspect of warfare, but the point of war is simply to dominate the enemy. Creating terror can be one path to this goal, but there are other ones.

For example, barbarians simply taking over a city would be domination by warfare. But barbarians shooting plague-ridden corpses and soldiers' heads into the city with a catapult could easily be called terrorism, as they are actions designed only to strike fear and terror into the hearts of the enemy.

I don't see much of a difference between terrorism done by the US and terrorism done by al-Qaeda, as in the end the point is only to create fear to blind the enemy and render him into submission. Nuking civilian areas in Japan or hitting civilian-filled airplanes into the civilian-filled Twin Towers had the same goal in the end, though the former did much more damage and was much more successful.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Ravus]
    #4527805 - 08/12/05 09:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Oy


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4528089 - 08/12/05 11:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oy




WTF?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: LSDempire]
    #4540021 - 08/15/05 10:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

With regards to Isreal look how it worked to gain Palestinians control over Gaza and the West Bank and Isreali withdrawl from the Golan Heights. The PLO was given a seat at the UN general assembly for blowing up airplanes. Also look at the US attitude to Iraq. Public opinion would be higher if not for daily suicide bombings.

Actually Alan Dershowitz has an intersting book entitled: Why Terrorism Works. He has some pretty powerful examples.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4541797 - 08/16/05 11:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Its a very sad fact but terrorism does work.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4541840 - 08/16/05 12:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
With regards to Isreal look how it worked to gain Palestinians control over Gaza and the West Bank and Isreali withdrawl from the Golan Heights. The PLO was given a seat at the UN general assembly for blowing up airplanes. Also look at the US attitude to Iraq. Public opinion would be higher if not for daily suicide bombings.

Actually Alan Dershowitz has an intersting book entitled: Why Terrorism Works. He has some pretty powerful examples.




The PLO was given a seat because they were the point men for a largely anti-semitic world. If not for terrorism I surmise that the thugs would have had Gaza and most of the West Bank back a long time ago. We'll never know though. Israel only wanted those territories as buffers from their neighbors. By the time they reached a reasonable non-agression agreement with those neighbors the terriories themselves became the source of the threats and attacks. We'll see what these stone age assholes do now.


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Invisibletrick

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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4541865 - 08/16/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Terrorism works but I don't think it's as efficient or as organized as guerilla warfare, which has much more of an impact.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: trick]
    #4542049 - 08/16/05 01:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trick said:
Terrorism works but I don't think it's as efficient or as organized as guerilla warfare, which has much more of an impact.




Terrorism and guerilla warfare seem to go hand in hand oftentimes.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Does terrorism work? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4542103 - 08/16/05 01:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
With regards to Isreal look how it worked to gain Palestinians control over Gaza and the West Bank and Isreali withdrawl from the Golan Heights. The PLO was given a seat at the UN general assembly for blowing up airplanes. Also look at the US attitude to Iraq. Public opinion would be higher if not for daily suicide bombings.

Actually Alan Dershowitz has an intersting book entitled: Why Terrorism Works. He has some pretty powerful examples.




The thugs do have control of West Bank and the Gaza Strip because of terrorism.

The PLO was given a seat because they were the point men for a largely anti-semitic world. If not for terrorism I surmise that the thugs would have had Gaza and most of the West Bank back a long time ago. We'll never know though. Israel only wanted those territories as buffers from their neighbors. By the time they reached a reasonable non-agression agreement with those neighbors the terriories themselves became the source of the threats and attacks. We'll see what these stone age assholes do now.




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