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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4525713 - 08/12/05 07:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I like the idea of unconditional love, to totally accept. Not having judgemental thoughts of what "is"  In this way, we can see "enlightenment" as "lightening up the load" for the mind.  Another way you can look at it is to "shed some light" on different ideas, points of views, etc.  There can be many more references towards enlightenment, but it's only a word. Enlightenment is another label, a label for a state of mind. This label makes the idea of enlgihtenment as one single step when in fact, it would be more of an unfolding event rather than just a single happening.  :grin:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: tomk]
    #4525719 - 08/12/05 07:26 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Icelander

The term 'enlightenment' has been polluted by being thrown around for 10,000 years. There is no way any of us can know exactly what you are asking. Can you put your question into words without using that term?

You also ask if it is possible to awake (up from our conditioning?). Do you consider this a separate question, or a different way to ask the same question? Have you thought if this is the same question or a different question?

I think I detect some muddy thinking (or use of terminology) in your question. It is impossible to get a clear answer to a muddy question. You need to clarify what you are asking. I might have a couple interesting thoughts on this if I can get at what you are actually asking.




I cannot give a definition of enlightenment that would please all. Nor do I want to because I don't know what enlightenment is. I just have my personal subjective idea of it. Which I shared to the best of my ability.

I do not consider awakening to be a separate question as this is the gist of my definition of enlightenment. Once you see and experience yourself as something beyond your egoic conditioning, then you have been enlightened. Then comes the day to day work of living with that knowledge. This part is a process of further opening to this experience of a more complete experience of self. You will still suffer and experience confusion and in effect be everything that is human. But you will have path that previously you did not know existed, (except maybe in theory) to follow if you so choose. I believe it is likely that you will choose it be cause it involves the experience of unconditional love, which is a bliss feeling that nothing else compares with. But this knowledge can fade if you slip too far back into old egoic patterns. That's why IMO many "enlightened masters" fall. They loose the tract toward love. I experience this losing track many times throughout my day. I continue to follow a path with heart because I love it beyond what I have had before. My old way of living seems empty in many respects. There is no guarantee that I will continue on this path. That is the challenge of living out my path.

I hope this clears up my position somewhat.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4525897 - 08/12/05 09:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Don Jaun, in the book Tales of Power, finds his apprentice on the edge of his first journey into the unknown on his own.  At this point he tells him that returning to this world is a choice he will have to make on his own. And if he chooses to return he will have a path. And that path is determined by his spirit. He may wander unknown throughout the world. He may become powerful or mean and petty. It all depends on his spirit. Then, Don Jaun and Genaro shared their choice of a path with the apprentice. To love the earth with unbending passion. The predilection of two warriors. 

I think enlightenment is like that. You have your experience of the totality of yourself, you return and make your choice, and you follow your path. Your spirit determines how far your path takes you. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4527566 - 08/12/05 06:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

who wants to know?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4527577 - 08/12/05 06:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Me! :grin: Whoever that is? :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4527604 - 08/12/05 06:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to agree with that view.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4527927 - 08/12/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Fuck Tolle BTW.  Fuck that fucking fucker.  :thumbdown: to new age gooblygook.

Although, his contention that gay men and women are much more open to enlightenment type experiences is very interesting.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: tomk]
    #4527938 - 08/12/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:rofl: Please share more thoughts on E.T.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4528249 - 08/12/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Um.

Seeking the truth involves, you know, not becoming attached to a mystical experience.

The whole aura of his books reeks.  Combining genuine decent guruish writings with the advertising campaign around these books just reeks.  It reminds me of the prof from harry potter who went around smiling and signing autographs all day.  I'm sure the guy is a genuine guy with some interesting perspectives, but a person really interested in the truth would never surrond his book with the marketing schtik.

You made a comment about seeing ram dass in person and not being impressed because of how he presented himself conflicting with some of his work or something like that.  Maybe I have the same complaint here.  :shrug:


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"I am eternally free"

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Swami]
    #4529375 - 08/13/05 06:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
To be in a state of perputal Love.

No comprende.

If you are not personally in a state of perpetual love then you cannot state that is what enlightenment is. If you were in a perpetual state of love then ALL of your comments and actions would reflect this state.

Please explain this contradiction.




I think your picking to much on the word " Perpetual " as I was attempting to make a point. I agree the actual definition of " Perpuetual " probley does not fitt into what I was saying.

Swami, I never said " I was, am or is in perfect enlightenment " or "I have achieved the highest state of  enlightenment."

I can not say what enlightenment is ? Why ? because you have decided that I can't........... Hum..... The discussion is not about me or your absolutions. The thread is about our thoughts on enlightenment not our dictations. :thumbup:

And besides it has been said by a few people already. Enlightenment is a word, not a set of actions or values that are exaclty known by all. It is wide open for all truths to fitt into. What is true for you may be false for others. Unconditional love is very far off and still can be the only Goal a person strives for. That in itself " the path to Love " is a enlightenment isn't it ? Most people don't even take the time to have these talks. So that makes you a person of certian enlightenment in the values of Love............ :heart:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinebubbles
OverLord

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 22
Loc: London
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: tomk]
    #4529464 - 08/13/05 07:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Fuck Tolle BTW.  Fuck that fucking fucker.  :thumbdown: to new age gooblygook.

Although, his contention that gay men and women are much more open to enlightenment type experiences is very interesting.




more open to enlightenment type experience? how so? cant imagine the guys form queer eye being spiritually inclined.

iv actually met eckhart tolle, went on a retreat of his in scotland, the people i talked to whilst on the retreat were much more interesting than him. i would rather have done a vision quest or something. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"the modeling chalenge for the future is human history. we will no longer be playing games, we will be proposing actual models and methods to begin to shape the world" Terence McKenna

"Yes, but no sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall KILL you" stewie griffin

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: tomk]
    #4529552 - 08/13/05 08:01 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Um.

Seeking the truth involves, you know, not becoming attached to a mystical experience.

The whole aura of his books reeks.  Combining genuine decent guruish writings with the advertising campaign around these books just reeks.  It reminds me of the prof from harry potter who went around smiling and signing autographs all day.  I'm sure the guy is a genuine guy with some interesting perspectives, but a person really interested in the truth would never surrond his book with the marketing schtik.

You made a comment about seeing ram dass in person and not being impressed because of how he presented himself conflicting with some of his work or something like that.  Maybe I have the same complaint here.  :shrug:




I hear you.  I liked much his first book. I also noticed the big promo he let surround him.  I think this is again a case of having a real experience, and then falling back into the ego routine.  It takes dedication to stay the course. Then of course we don't have access to him personally to find out exactally where he is at. Which is a hinderance to knowing what is going on.  But I suspect you are correct. That's why I do not attach myself to teachers in total. I take what feels true and then continue on my path.  It's easy to be fooled by someones persona and words. Especially if you don't hang with them. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
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Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4529558 - 08/13/05 08:03 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

lol


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--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4529562 - 08/13/05 08:07 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I like your post. While living unconditional love is something we might not be able to do in each moment. As we focus our hearts in that direction, we are able to do it better with time. That's called evolution. It's how we do it on the material plane. So many people think things are black and white, good or bad. No one is perfect and no one a complete failure. Yet some think that they are one or the other. It is a form of indulging.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4529581 - 08/13/05 08:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yes that is exactly right....... I have found that it is in perfect love from God that we are loved by God, he himself has the intention to correct us and guide us even thought it may seem he is crushing us when really he is loving us in perfect love. The intent of the heart of God is to love us..........
The entire concept of " the intent of the heart " is the backbone of the teachings of Christ. While it may appear to people around you your "fucking up" it is the single spot of intent that matters not only to an individual but also to God. We must strive always to be like perfect love even when we make huge mistakes. When the people around us start pointing fingers then is the time to be very aware that the struggle is between ourselves and God. God does not need an explanation he only needs to know what your goal and intentions are.... repeating myself again LOL


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4529594 - 08/13/05 08:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yes,  Actually people that point fingers at you or get under your skin and drive you to outbursts of defensiveness, are also (in your terms) gifts of Gods perfect love. You will learn more from them, about loving, then your best friends at times. They are petty tyrants and teachers. Learn to be open to their gifts (hard to do) and you will grow in Love.  :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4529628 - 08/13/05 08:49 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

LOL funny you should say that............ I just came back here to expand in that very direction.

You know God is everywhere and he sometimes will use hard stuff to get us to understand a lesson. One of the most hardest things I have to deal with are hardcore debaters and people who refuse to see my point of view, not just to agree with it, but to simply refuse to even think about it. That has always been a struggle for me. I used to be far worse.........

But you are right...
Sometimes, most times when we are letting people get under our skins. We are being exposed to an area of our hearts that is sick and needs healing. The transparency of the heart is a absolute quality if one truly is to move forward. Most of the greatest lesson a person can learn come from allowing themselves to be naked before those that want to do us harm. Even when we know that is there only intention. We must always be aware of the greater lesson to be learned. Not to say that all people who make us feel uncomfortable have the intentions to hurt or humiliate us. Just that it is up to us, the person feeling irritated, to really examine of feelings and why we react the way we have. That in itself is a great part of Love not only for ourselves but for those around us.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4533181 - 08/14/05 08:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I just read your glossolalia post and enjoyed it. Religious experience rarely (if ever) manifests in completely neutral ways. It seems to be colored by one's religious culture. I went through seminary, but I was not raised in a Christian home, and my psychedelically "occasioned" experiences only once took on a classic Biblically described experience, but it was Old Testament and occurred on a Jewish High Holy Day (since I was raised Jewish). I read your post just now, and it has allowed me to 'realize' why I went on a Tibetan prayer-flag-hanging spree this week.

I had hung a string of 25 small flags against a fence in the back yard, somewhat occulted by palm trees in June. Then, this week, another string of large prayer-flags arrived. I cut them in half and hung 15 between two coconut palms at the end of the pool and 10 more against that fence over the wood pile. Now, the outside front of the house has some pagan art: a large Bacchus relief, a couple of Green Men and a winged pixie holding a bowl of mushrooms while sitting on a large mushroom (well this is not exactly pagan, maybe magickal).

The center of the house - the living room, also has pagan Green Men, but also Egyptian and Greek mythic art as well as Jewish-Christian Gnostic elements - especially at the shrine area.

So, the house seems to symbolize my soul. The front appears to be pagan/magickal; the rear appears to be Tibetan Buddhist and the center which has pagan (read, natural) elements is dominated by a Jewish-Christian [Gnostic] motif. Now my early powerfully transforming psychedelic experiences were magickal (because I was practicing magick - my first 'chosen' faith), then I moved to Buddhism during which time I had a classic Vajrayana experience (which has me wearing an Om Mani Padme Hum ring and bracelet to this day 30+ years later), but Christ in my Heart-of-hearts was 'conveyed' to me by my best friend when we were no older than 5 years old. That Catholic version was reinforced by other beloved neighbors across the street from my folks (whose older daughter was the baby-sitter I was in love with as a child).

Your post sort of triggered this new (howsoever artificial distinction) that the Buddhist influence is a sort of 'glow' or 'glory' of Transpersonal Oceanic Compassion that surrounds the core Christian value of 'Love' - deeply personal as well as Transpersonal. The first, Compassion was experienced during my highest psychedelic experience but Love was mediated through certain key people early in childhood. Thanks for the opportunity to do this thinking out loud. It helped to clarify some things for myself.

I think that my recent house guest, my Lady's step-mom and a fundamentalist, Benny Hinn following Christian, induced a Buddhist expansion in my soul to counteract a rather distasteful version of Christianity: fearful of other faiths and therefore critical, condemning and arrogant  :thumbdown:. I wanted the new prayer-flags to arrive when she was still here (from Germany, and it would seem, she's unlikely to return anytime soon by her comments) because I wanted large images of Chenrezig-Avalokitesvara - Buddha of Compassion - in her condemning face  :smirk:. I wanted to make a non-verbal, highly visual point about her bigotry which is her version of Christianity. The festive-looking blue, white, red, green and yellow flags will remain til they fray apart, sending vibes of Compassion through the aether  :smile:. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: Icelander]
    #4533224 - 08/14/05 08:52 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I hear you.  I liked much his first book. I also noticed the big promo he let surround him.  I think this is again a case of having a real experience, and then falling back into the ego routine.




Or, perhaps, it is the case of a person who felt the need to express his insight in a written format and wanted others to have access to it. This person then initiated a symbiotic relationship with an organization that views expressed insight as "product". The organization then distributed the "product" and exchanged it to other individuals for goods. The organization then returns an amount of goods to the person who originally expressed his insight, so that the person (an organization himself) would be able to sustain himself, as is the nature of a symbiotic relationship.

Is there anything inherently wrong with this? What aspect of this contaminates the expressed insight in itself? :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Am I enlightened? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4533263 - 08/14/05 09:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Or what you said. :grin: I thought about that. Of course it's ok, and nothing wrong per se. Of course his intent is important, for him at least and could color his future work. But his message is out in print and even the first book took a "book deal" with all the trimmings. Those with ears for it will get the message no matter what the medium. So yes! you're right. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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