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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: ricochet]
    #3527666 - 12/21/04 12:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"will have to agree that contemporary classical artists tend to hold my attention and are/were more innovative than the "classics"."

I love when people claim to know classical music and then display complete ignorance of music history by claiming that certain composers aren't innovative.

Not true at all.  There were contemporaries of Bach doing fugues where each voice was in a different key.

Also, innovation must be compared against the norm of the time.  Take the stylistic change between Mozart and Beethoven.  Beethoven has a symphony, in F, where he opens with a long C dominant 7 chord.

When he put that out, people were scandalized.  They went :whoa: you can't do that.  This Beethoven guy must be crazy and not know music theory.  Then, everyone copied him.  So what happens 200 years later is that a hugely innovative artist sounds like everyone else.  But this doesn't mean that he wasn't innovative, rather his innovation was so successful that everyone copied it. 

To follow innovation through the historical trend, it goes like this.

Gregorian chant.

From gregorian chant, innovaters came along and added polyphonic writing, modal shadings, and counterpoint techniques to make renisance music.  Palestrina comes to mind.

In this rennisance counterpoint, which was a modal system, certain combinations attracted the ear of a new generation of composers.  These composers extracted certain progressions from the r counterpoint, and added sequence (repeating a motive as it goes up or down a scale), and created a new style.  This new style today sounds unoriginal, but coming from the r counterpoint scene, it represented a huge break from tradition.  Although not the first to write in this style, Bach was the pinnicle of this movement.

The next big innovation was the symphony orchestra, and better pianos.  With these technical innovations by instrument makers and music organizers, new musical forms (sonata form) were developed to harness these new resources.  These composers kept the harmonic system of the baroque composers, but extended it.  Instead of having chords go I-V-I or whatever, they had entire sections do it.  These sectional harmonies were often quite extended and complex.  New ideas about texture also influenced this new style.  Mozart, Hayden, and Beethoven are the big names of this era.  Beethoven and Mozart were hugely innovative.  Beethoven in particular, when he wrote music, no one had written music that sounded like his.  Look at symphony number 3.  In the first movement, early on, there is one place where the music veers off and lands on a wrong chord.  10 minutes or so later, this chord is returned to and forms the basis for an entire section.  This was completely revolutionary for its time.

After Beethoven, we have the romanticists.  The formal, long range harmony developed during the classical era became a subject for experimentation.  Unusual key relationships were used (Chopin, for example, often went from minor to major to minor again or visa versa, eg. fantasy impromptu or prelude in Db).  Virtuosity became an art form in it's own right (Liszt), and harmonies were extended and innovated upon.  Later in this era, Wagner pushed the use of abnormal keys to a new level with his music, especially the overture for tristan und isolde.  Harmony was completely turned on it's head.  All sense of a tonal center was nearly lost. 

Harmonically, the change works like this.  In the renasance (If I spell it different every time I'll get it right once), the focus was on suspensions of a certain sort and C-B-C type melodic progressions.  In the baroque, it started to switch to chords, D major-G major-A major, for example.  In the classical era, these harmonies started to form the basis for sections instead of chords.  Instead of DMajor-A major, you might have:

D major - G minor - A sus 4 - A 7 - B minor - A 7 (65) D major, forming a section in D, then a transition - B minor - E minor F# minor - B 7 - E - E7, leading to a section in A, A major - F# minor, B minor - E 7.  Then a transition that lands on V of the first key - A major - B minor, D major - E major - F# minor - D 7 - G major - A 7.  This would form the basis of the first section of a sonata, then you would have a developmental section starting in the original key briefly, then going off to a bunch of different keys, but not I or V, while developing melodic ideas and themes using sequence and other techniqes.  Then, the development section would land on V in what is usually the climax of the piece.  This is usually quite long, and where a lot of the long term tension comes to a head.  Then there would be a recapitulation, starting in I (D) again and repeated, maybe a varied repeat.  Then in the transition, instead of landing on V/V (e7 above) it would land on V (A-7).  The material that was in the dominant key during the first section would be repeated, transposed to the tonic.  Then there might be a coda.  This was a huge innovation.  It sounds formulaic today, but it wasn't when mozart and beethoven were writing.  They wrote that way intuitively and then later, analysists crystalized the formal elements.

In the romantic era, the extended key relationships were up for grabs, as was harmony, and difficulty.  Chopin wasn't experimental?  Listen to his prelude in E major, and all the harmony based on chords a third away (progressions like E major, B major, G major, D major, Bb major, G major, A major, B major).  Very experimental.

In the late romantic era, extended key relationships and dissonant harmonies nearly obliterated the tonal system.

Then we get to the composers you name.  Wagner is the first of them, his prelude to tristan und isolde being the biggest moment in music history so far.  From Wagner, we have schoenberg, who pushed the destruction of tonality farther with is twelve tone system.  Then, others pushed this system farther, Webern starting experimenting with serialization of other elements, which stockhausen pushed to all elements.  In response to that, you have minimalists and people like cage, who rebeled against that and produced music with entirely different ideas and techniques.  From the minimalists (especially Steve Reich's tape works) comes todays entire electronic music scene.

You make two mistakes.  First, you assume that the old composers weren't as innovative.  In a historical context this simply isn't true.  Then, you assume modern composers were hugely innovative, this isn't true either, they merely mark the apex of an evolutionary spam that goes back generations. 

I'll post some links to MIDI files that will let you see the progression of music, highlighting the innovative nature of each era.


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"I am eternally free"


Edited by tomk (12/21/04 12:48 PM)


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Invisiblericochet
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 1,112
Re: Any classical music fans out there? *DELETED* [Re: tomk]
    #3527681 - 12/21/04 12:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by ricochet

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by ricochet (12/21/04 12:46 PM)


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OfflineBigNerd
Sociable loner
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 4,228
Loc: local elementary school
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: ricochet]
    #3527720 - 12/21/04 12:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know a whole lot about musical theory or classical music history, but Handel's Water Music is one of my favorites.

BigNerd


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Sometimes karma needs a little help.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: tomk]
    #3527729 - 12/21/04 12:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

To hear the evolution I outlined above, go to www.classicalarchives.com You have to register to download files, so go ahead and register. You can only get five files, so check out and then download the following MIDI Files. Be sure to rightclick / save to desktop rather then just clicking. You want to click on the composer name then go under midi.

MIDI sucks, so the sound quality of the files is low. But you can hear the evolution I outlined above if you listen through these in order.

PALESTRINA Missa Veni Sponsa Christi 5.Benedictus
J.S Bach Prelude and Fugue in E-, BWV533 (under keyboard works - organ works - preludes and fuges)
Beethoven Piano Sonata No.21 in C, Op.53 'Waldstein' 1. Allegro con Brio
Chopin 24 preludes No. 9 in E major
Wagner - Tristan und Isolde Prelude

When you listen keep in mind that each composer only had stuff like the previous composers in his ear when he came up with the work.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2,321
Re: Any classical music fans out there? *DELETED* [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #3528033 - 12/21/04 01:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by oneducktwoducks

Reason for deletion: .


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Offlinestefan
work in progress

Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 8,932
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3528102 - 12/21/04 02:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

you can get soulseek and go to the 'Shroomery' room :thumbup:


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OfflineNosferatuMan
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 527
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: stefan]
    #3528385 - 12/21/04 03:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Beethoven

5th and 9th symphonies.


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Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: tomk]
    #5177961 - 01/13/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Aye calm it down a bit mate, you're very innacurate about a lot of stuff yourself in your brief annalysis of 600 years of music...for example, what does this actually mean?

"Harmonically, the change works like this. In the renasance (If I spell it different every time I'll get it right once), the focus was on suspensions of a certain sort and C-B-C type melodic progressions. In the baroque, it started to switch to chords, D major-G major-A major, for example. In the classical era, these harmonies started to form the basis for sections instead of chords."

Thats frankly bullshit. If you're gonna spew shiteloads of information at people at least know what you're on about.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: mr_kite]
    #5177973 - 01/13/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Argh, Related Threads strikes again! You replied to a year old post, but that's ok because you're drunk.


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Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: Revelation]
    #5177978 - 01/13/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Theres nothing wrong with yearold threads...theyre often more interesting.had time to mature and ripen. but well spotted anyway mr smuggy mcsmugson


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: mr_kite]
    #5177992 - 01/13/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Now i know you're drunk. Heh. Which is it tonight? White Lightning or Buckfast?


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Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
Male

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Any classical music fans out there? [Re: Revelation]
    #5178000 - 01/13/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

embarassingly enough marks and spencers wine...selling off their xmas stock. wish it was the lightming tho.


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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