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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Self defense training illegal
    #4523233 - 08/11/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This is ridiculous. Cops failure to use any semblance of rational thought that causes so many problems.

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2005/08/06/news/top_story/news01.txt

Quote:

A family vacation for Scott Turner, owner of Turner's Taekwondo Inc., came to a quick end when he received a call from one of his instructors saying his students, practicing gun self-defense, had just been handcuffed and held on the ground at gunpoint by Albany police.

"I thought they were joking," Turner said Thursday. But he soon realized there was truth to the story.

The students were detained briefly at the scene but then released with citations for disorderly conduct.

Turner, who says he has respect for the police department and understands why officers responded the way they did, doesn't understand why citations were issued.

According to an Albany police report, the department received one call from a driver on Queen Avenue reporting an armed disturbance at about 7 p.m. July 29, near the Four Seasons Car Wash, 1070 Queen Ave. S.E.

Police Capt. Ben Atchley said Friday the department may have received other calls as well.

What people saw, Turner said, was five students and an instructor participating in a martial arts exercise in an alley behind Karate For Kids, 1711 Hill St. S.E.

The students were practicing Krav Maga, a martial art that teaches, among other tactics, how to defend against someone approaching with a gun or knife, Turner explained.

The students, ages 17 to 45, were practicing with air soft guns, which were marked to signify they were unloaded or being used for practice, Turner said.

"Officers arrived on scene and observed people who appeared to have weapons in the back alley," Atchley said Friday.

The officers thought they had a possible robbery or gang activity, according to the police report.

The students and instructor were all ordered on the ground at gunpoint and handcuffed, according to the report.

Turner said that a 5-year-old girl, the daughter of one of the students, was patted down by police.

The report made no mention of that but did note that a child was found behind a Dumpster.

Five airsoft guns were seized by police, according to the report.

The officers learned that the activity was part of the Krav Maga class, but the supervising officer decided to issue a citation to all six people for disorderly conduct.

The citations were given because the activity, which could be seen from Queen Avenue S.E., "raised public alarm," Atchley said.

The department also used a tremendous amount of resources to respond to the activity, Atchley said.

If there was a major event occurring elsewhere in the city, Atchley said, the question is whether police would have been able to respond with only half the department available.

"By doing what they did, they diminished our ability to respond somewhere else," he said.

Turner understands why the police responded the way they did.

"Albany police did exactly what I would have expected them to do," Turner said. "I fully understand."

What Turner, and others in the class, don't understand is the citations.

Turner said his students are professionals in the community. "They are really good people. I have a lot of respect for them," he said.

When asked why all the students received citations and not just the instructor, Atchley said he wasn't there and that the decision was made by the supervising officer.

"I feel so bad for my students," Turner said. "If anyone has to get in trouble I would want it to be myself or the school."

He and the others in the class said they are hopeful the charges will be dismissed once they appear in Albany Municipal Court.

A conviction of disorderly conduct carries a maximum fine of $2,500 and maximum jail time of six months.

Turner has operated his martial arts business in Albany for 12 years.

During all that time, students have practiced tactics outside, Turner said.

The alley, with graffiti and wire fencing, gives students a different environment from the matted floors inside.

The irony, Turner pointed out, is that his students have probably never been in an alley at any other time in their lives.

Turner said officers have driven by at other times, and watched them or asked what was going on, but no one had ever been issued a citation or even been told to go inside.

Now several of his students have canceled their membership, Turner said. "I can't blame them."

He noted that one of the students originally came to his school because of its good reputation.

A call to the police department or signs in the alley stating that training was in session could have prevented the whole episode, Atchley said.

"There was no indication to us this was a training exercise."

Turner said he has not spoken with anyone at the police department since the incident.

And while martial arts classes continue as usual, outdoor exercises will be held inside until the incident is resolved, he said.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 11 years, 25 days
Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: cb9fl]
    #4523247 - 08/11/05 07:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Those cops sound like dickholes. People playing with fake guns doesn't equate to a crime. I'd like to know who owns the alley?


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineBrilliantWhite
Educated WhiteMan
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4524928 - 08/12/05 02:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

"Disorderly Conduct" I hate that. :dancinghitler:


--------------------
Who built the la-la-love?

listen to Portugal. The man

www.myspace.com/portugaltheman


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OfflineLSDempire
LibertarianEnforcer
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Registered: 04/23/05
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: BrilliantWhite]
    #4524995 - 08/12/05 02:40 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This is typical of a police state. During this "War on Drugs", violations of human rights, a lot worse than this happen all the time. To solve the problem we can start by ending the war on drugs, and putting the Libertarian Party in power.


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: LSDempire]
    #4525037 - 08/12/05 02:50 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

No, that's all bullshit. We need a fucking revolution, as soon as more people start getting fucked over, there will be a civil war. There better be one.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineSycronica
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: downforpot]
    #4525138 - 08/12/05 03:15 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Too late for a civil war, any act of revolution would be portrayed by the media as crazies and everyone would go back to work the next day and not give it a second thought.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Registered: 04/23/05
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: downforpot]
    #4527136 - 08/12/05 06:15 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
No, that's all bullshit. We need a fucking revolution, as soon as more people start getting fucked over, there will be a civil war. There better be one.




I never said we didn't need a revolution, we need a Libertarian revolution.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: Sycronica]
    #4527144 - 08/12/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Too late for a civil war, any act of revolution would be portrayed by the media as crazies and everyone would go back to work the next day and not give it a second thought.




I think the media is made up of crazy assholes, but thanks to the Internet we can mostly ignore them now.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: LSDempire]
    #4529945 - 08/13/05 01:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ummm.. what about the class taking the responsibility to practice with realistic looking stunt guns somewhere other than an alley? Maybe say.. their dojo if they have one? Or the backyard of one of the participants? Or even in the middle of an open field in a park, maybe with some banners or something official looking? Why in an alley?

I agree the citations were arguably unwarranted.. but I can also see the point of view of the LEOs. They basically wasted a bunch of time and man-power dealing with a non-issue simply because the martial artists couldn't have exercised a little bit of common sense and held their practice in a more reasonable place.

Hopefully they will have learned from this experience.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: LSDempire]
    #4533518 - 08/14/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone with even a hint of intelligent thought even post here anymore? Christ.


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



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OfflineSycronica
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #4533877 - 08/14/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteRabbitt said:
Does anyone with even a hint of intelligent thought even post here anymore? Christ.




And I suppose that doesn't inclued yourself?

lol yeah right


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #4533892 - 08/14/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteRabbitt said:
Does anyone with even a hint of intelligent thought even post here anymore? Christ.




Indeed, people like to misconstrue stories simply to try to nail another bad deed to the government, but it's not like the martial artists weren't at fault for causing public alarm by using simulated weapons in a dark alleyway. Of course somebody is going to go "What the fuck?" when they see that, and of course it's going to waste police time and energy.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: Ravus]
    #4533904 - 08/14/05 03:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

The martial artists were dumb for using fake guns to train with in a bad spot. The cops were assholes for actually giving them a ticket for it when they found out what was really going on.

But having an opinion one way or the other doesn't make you stupid, it makes you human.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: unbeliever]
    #4535101 - 08/14/05 09:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Ummm.. what about the class taking the responsibility to practice with realistic looking stunt guns somewhere other than an alley? Maybe say.. their dojo if they have one? Or the backyard of one of the participants? Or even in the middle of an open field in a park, maybe with some banners or something official looking? Why in an alley?

I agree the citations were arguably unwarranted.. but I can also see the point of view of the LEOs. They basically wasted a bunch of time and man-power dealing with a non-issue simply because the martial artists couldn't have exercised a little bit of common sense and held their practice in a more reasonable place.

Hopefully they will have learned from this experience.




Thank you for spreading some sanity. If you're a cop, your job is to protect and to serve. When you see people using what appears to be a gun to and people fighting in teh alley, how the FUCK do they know if it's real or not. I blame the retard who thought "Lets fight each other with guns and karate in an alley.. we won't look suspicious".


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Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Classified
Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: cb9fl]
    #4535124 - 08/14/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The citations were given because the activity, which could be seen from Queen Avenue S.E., "raised public alarm," Atchley said.

The department also used a tremendous amount of resources to respond to the activity, Atchley said.

If there was a major event occurring elsewhere in the city, Atchley said, the question is whether police would have been able to respond with only half the department available.

"By doing what they did, they diminished our ability to respond somewhere else," he said.



At least the citations will more than make up for it. Whew!

In all seriousness, yes. The police should have investigated it. But these crooks will fine you for anything nowadays. "Raised public alarm." Unless the public is traumatized or emotionally scarred in someway, that's silly. It was a misunderstanding.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: bukkake]
    #4535404 - 08/14/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

The citations were given because the activity, which could be seen from Queen Avenue S.E., "raised public alarm," Atchley said.

The department also used a tremendous amount of resources to respond to the activity, Atchley said.

If there was a major event occurring elsewhere in the city, Atchley said, the question is whether police would have been able to respond with only half the department available.

"By doing what they did, they diminished our ability to respond somewhere else," he said.



At least the citations will more than make up for it. Whew!

In all seriousness, yes. The police should have investigated it. But these crooks will fine you for anything nowadays. "Raised public alarm." Unless the public is traumatized or emotionally scarred in someway, that's silly. It was a misunderstanding.




I see it as a minor punitive fine by the police in response to an irresponsible and easily avoidable incident by these martial artist folks. They did something that wasted police resources and could easily have resulted in a stupid and violent reaction by other citizens or the police themselves. It makes no sense to just say, "ohh oops, I guess ya'll didn't mean it. Have a good day now!".


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: bukkake]
    #4535786 - 08/14/05 11:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My girlfriend likes to scream "RAPE!" when we have sex in public.


--------------------


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4536171 - 08/15/05 01:10 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
My girlfriend likes to scream "RAPE!" when we have sex in public.




Hitler... do you hold replica guns to her head while you do it in the back alleys to?... I heard you were kind of kinky.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: cb9fl]
    #4537003 - 08/15/05 08:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I have had people call the police while teaching rescue classes thinking that somebody was really in trouble, but I have never gotten a ticket. Having learned from past mistakes, I notify the OIC at 911 before starting class work telling them what beach we will be using for practice and what times we will be there. I have always notified the resort staff and people in the immediate area that we are doing drills, but too many people have cell phones these days and call first think later. I have seen one (drunk) resort guest get a ticket for calling into 911 one too many times... ever time we started a new drill, the drunk would call 911 thinking it was funny... the police finally got tired of it.

> but it's not like the martial artists weren't at fault for causing public alarm by using simulated weapons in a dark alleyway.

It's not like the martial artists were at fault because the public is too stupid to know the difference between a real gun and a practice gun with a bright orange plug on the end of the barrel. Sometimes, practice needs to be done in the surroundings for which the event is likely to occur.



I would also be extremly surprised if the instructors didn't have something, such as their clothing, which identified them as such.

Finally, I suspect that somebody mouthed off to the police resulting in the ticket. I cannot imagine the police giving people a ticket for practicing self defense. There is more to this story than we are being told.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Self defense training illegal [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4538160 - 08/15/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
My girlfriend likes to scream "RAPE!" when we have sex in public.




Yeah she does that with me too. Kinky little minx. What a sense of humor.


--------------------


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