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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Giving
    #4505944 - 08/07/05 03:39 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Many people who give do not give from the heart. They expect something in return when even they say they do not. Example: Years ago my inlaws gave me a large microwave oven (that they had been given). I was making 3.50 and hour and had 2 kids. I had no use for the oven (my apartment was furnished with a stove) so I sold it and bought needed items with the money. They took great offense to this. They had put no conditions on it's use...yet they were angry with me in a vocal way. This is an example everyone can relate to I imagine. If you give from the heart expect no return. Cease to care about the item. If they the recipient destroys it and shits on it...it is OK...you gave it away. It is important to have no attachment to gifts.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4505963 - 08/07/05 03:43 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

yeah man, for people i care about, i find myself wanting to control them sometimes, because of my own fears about their well-being, rather than trusting them to their own process


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Giving [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4506332 - 08/07/05 09:51 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This is my exact philosophy of giving gifts and why I rarely do give on holidays anymore. The definition of gift is broken if there are any expectations. When you begin to practice this, get ready for the fallout. :grin: Great post Hue. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Giving [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4506421 - 08/07/05 10:45 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

In a past thread some posters claim to give friends money with zero expectations of getting paid back.

Depending on the amount of money and the circumstances, I suspect this would be true some of the time. But, my guess is that most of the time there is a lingering expectation followed by a mild annoyance when the friend is slow or doesn't pay them back.

Expectations go well beyond formal gifts. Every relationship, every encounter, every exchange is chock full of expectations as to who does what when, what one shouldn't do, etc.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Giving [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506506 - 08/07/05 11:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Very true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Giving [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4506843 - 08/07/05 02:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I never give "loans" to friends. I just give the money freely. I don't care what they want it for...that they need it is the only excuse I require. However, I do not and cannot afford to give out money like I own a money tree. I look out for my family first.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Giving [Re: Icelander]
    #4506849 - 08/07/05 02:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

When I get a gift I do what I want with it. I have thrown many gifts that I considered useless garbage (like shelf knicknacks...little statues) in the garbage because I did not want it. I did appreciate the spirit with which it was given, but I do not feel obligated to follow a code concerning gifts. When someone gets offended I tell them about gift giving and attachment. They usually agree with me.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4512244 - 08/08/05 11:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

let's say i give someone a gift and they throw it away and i'm offended

maybe that means i've misjudged the relationship.

instead of being like, 'oh well i'll just have no attachment to it' i could be like, 'well i have that attachment for a reason. the reason is, i thought this person valued what i gave them more than they really do. maybe i'm mad because it means they don't value everything i do as much as i thought. i'm foolish.'

maybe selfishness is okay?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Giving [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4513554 - 08/09/05 07:49 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Many people who give do not give from the heart. They expect something in return when even they say they do not. Example: Years ago my inlaws gave me a large microwave oven (that they had been given). I was making 3.50 and hour and had 2 kids. I had no use for the oven (my apartment was furnished with a stove) so I sold it and bought needed items with the money. They took great offense to this. They had put no conditions on it's use...yet they were angry with me in a vocal way. This is an example everyone can relate to I imagine. If you give from the heart expect no return. Cease to care about the item. If they the recipient destroys it and shits on it...it is OK...you gave it away. It is important to have no attachment to gifts.





I hear you. I know exactly what you mean, when my father used to give me something (even a present) it was always still his, he would get offended when I sold it.
One thing is being happy to see that someone likes and needs what you gave him, but this is silly, you can't force your rules.

most people are like this:
They give something in act of "charity", then when the taker turns against them for some reason it's like: "i gave you ... you ungratefull son of a bitch"

It seems people only wish the takers to crawl on their feet saying how they are good and angels and all.

A true giver should just give, look and walk away, and it shouldn't matter to him wheather the person is gratefull or not.

You give food to feed, not to recieve thanks.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Giving [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4513591 - 08/09/05 08:17 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

could all this apply to oral sex in anyway?


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Offlinerake
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Re: Giving [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4513892 - 08/09/05 11:51 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

oh absolutely - unless it comes from his in-laws. :shocked:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Giving [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4514896 - 08/09/05 05:28 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
could all this apply to oral sex in anyway?




unless there is some kind of emotional attachment, sex is not giving but consuming, so it doesn't apply


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineZephid
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Re: Giving [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4515068 - 08/09/05 06:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think the reason reason that people get offended when you return their gifts it's because they feel that the gift has more value than you could get if you sold it. In the example with the microwave, the in-laws felt that the microwave had more value being used by Huehuecoyotl than they could get just by selling it. That is why they gave it to him rather than just sell it themselves. The entire reason that they gave him the microwave was because of that increase in value, otherwise they would have just given him money. If they knew that he was just going to sell it then they wouldn't have given it to him in the first place.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4516463 - 08/10/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It seems people only wish the takers to crawl on their feet saying how they are good and angels and all.

A true giver should just give, look and walk away, and it shouldn't matter to him wheather the person is gratefull or not.




it pisses me off when people give me something with expectations attached to it.

yet does it follow from this that i should give to others without attachment?

if i give someone something then realize i'm doing it with attachment, then i tell myself 'damn i should be unattached' and give it to them, am i being dishonest with myself?

i mean, if my impulse is to give with attachment, and i realize this, why should i start giving without attachment, if that isn't really my impulse?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Giving [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4517790 - 08/10/05 12:44 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I believe the key here is not "shoulding" yourself about being attached, but rather accepting that there may be negative consequences for you later. If you take full responsibility for giving with attachment, you will be less likely to blame the recipient if they don't appreciate your gift the way you want them to.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: Veritas]
    #4517943 - 08/10/05 01:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, i could even be angry with them, without blaming them


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Giving [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4517956 - 08/10/05 01:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly. You may allow yourself to feel whatever is real for you, and completely own that experience. You will have been fore-warned by your consciousness of giving with "strings attached," and so will be prepared to take full responsibility for your experience.

It is very different to feel anger when you KNOW it's all you!


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: Veritas]
    #4518046 - 08/10/05 02:03 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

like blame is a cognitive thing, since i know for a fact the other person is not to blame, since it's just the process that's happening.

i could even blame in an emotional sense, 'i blame you, you're at fault, it's your responsibility!!! :rant:' and it would be okay


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Giving [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4518059 - 08/10/05 02:06 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMO the point at which it becomes emotionally/relationally "toxic" is when we refuse to acknowledge our participation in creating our experiences. The "victim" stance is disempowering and, again IMO, draws futher negative experience to us in order to validate our story of being a victim.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Giving [Re: Veritas]
    #4518140 - 08/10/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

what i hear you saying is, letting ourselves be a victim if we feel like a victim, takes away our ability to affect our environment, and causes us to passively let ourselves be hurt when we could stop it.

i know that feeling like a victim is a very powerful emotion from my experience. feeling powerless is painful.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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