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OfflineJEDI
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Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 83
Last seen: 10 years, 14 days
God and free will and a huge contradiction
    #4505229 - 08/07/05 12:26 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

ASSUME GOD EXISTS WHEN READING THIS (for you non-believers)

God created us with one gift; the gift of free will. God created the angels all with free will in the beginning. the Bible states that the devil turned against God. so that means, God would of had to of created the knowledge of "turning against" into the devil's mind in order for it to happen, right? so that would prove the Bible false that the devil didn't turn against God, God turned the devil against God. THATS one contradiction.

war. war was created by humans free will on earth right? according to the above topic, if it were true, God would of had to put the "KNOWLEDGE" of "WAR" into humans minds for it to happen. how would it ever be possible for war to exist without the knowledge of it first inputted into our minds? well, God had to of created the knowledge.

The second and last contradiction i have for you:

if God is good, and God created only good in us, why is their war, and rape, and killings, and shootings, if we were created good? well free will certaintly doesnt work than, if God put it into us. (but then it could of that we made the decisions to do those things). BUT, God had to of put the knowledge of decision in to choose things right? SO... that means God made us with NO free will, and that were slaves?

WELL............ MY conclusion is that God would of had to of created EVIL too. which means, the devil didnt create evil, and that brings us to the point that God created a storyline (in a sense) that would happen which would eventually lead to God purposely made the devil turn against him because of [whatever reason].

so that means, God created rape, killings, war, shootings, and everything good too... WHICH means, God is GOOD AND EVIL. (i have a hard time personally believing that, but if my idea is true than it would have to be true)

remember, the KNOWLEDGE of decision would of had to be inputted into our minds, which TOTALLY contradicts FREE WILL in all its ESSENCE.


does it make sense?

express opinions please.


Edited by JEDI (08/07/05 12:38 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: JEDI]
    #4505400 - 08/07/05 01:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

It was an enjoyable read, however, God in the Bible said he gifted us with free will.

To use Gods words and actions to make a case for why we truly have free will was a no brainer when He said we had it in the first place. In that self contained system, it never was an issue if we had it or not.

God said we had it and if you use the words and actions of God to validate it of course, you'll be able too.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineJEDI
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Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 83
Last seen: 10 years, 14 days
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4505453 - 08/07/05 01:23 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
It was an enjoyable read, however, God in the Bible said he gifted us with free will.

To use Gods words and actions to make a case for why we truly have free will was a no brainer when He said we had it in the first place. In that self contained system, it never was an issue if we had it or not.

God said we had it and if you use the words and actions of God to validate it of course, you'll be able too.




good response. however, your answer is a little more common sense than logic. i did enjoy it, and i feel it is true, i could use a response on the same level though. keep going if you feel like it, i enjoy philosophical arguments.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: JEDI]
    #4505522 - 08/07/05 01:36 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There is nothing to argue with is my point.

It's like saying One is One.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
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Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: JEDI]
    #4505806 - 08/07/05 02:59 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Free will or the lack of it are heavy concepts to ponder....while we could be pondering something with more practical use...mankind acts and responds LIKE WE HAVE free will...that is all that matters.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4506335 - 08/07/05 09:54 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I have been watching these freewill threads with almost no interest, because of what you have just stated.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGalbuu
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Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 7
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: Icelander]
    #4506821 - 08/07/05 02:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Wow Jedi my IQ dropped about 6.5 points. Thanks alot buddy!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: Icelander]
    #4506831 - 08/07/05 02:05 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I always reply with a similar type answer because it is just mental masturbation. It accomplishes nothing, but "groovy" talk. There is no application for it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: JEDI]
    #4506847 - 08/07/05 02:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

JEDI said:
ASSUME GOD EXISTS WHEN READING THIS (for you non-believers)

God created us with one gift; the gift of free will. God created the angels all with free will in the beginning. the Bible states that the devil turned against God. so that means, God would of had to of created the knowledge of "turning against" into the devil's mind in order for it to happen, right? so that would prove the Bible false that the devil didn't turn against God, God turned the devil against God. THATS one contradiction.

war. war was created by humans free will on earth right? according to the above topic, if it were true, God would of had to put the "KNOWLEDGE" of "WAR" into humans minds for it to happen. how would it ever be possible for war to exist without the knowledge of it first inputted into our minds? well, God had to of created the knowledge.

The second and last contradiction i have for you:

if God is good, and God created only good in us, why is their war, and rape, and killings, and shootings, if we were created good? well free will certaintly doesnt work than, if God put it into us. (but then it could of that we made the decisions to do those things). BUT, God had to of put the knowledge of decision in to choose things right? SO... that means God made us with NO free will, and that were slaves?

WELL............ MY conclusion is that God would of had to of created EVIL too. which means, the devil didnt create evil, and that brings us to the point that God created a storyline (in a sense) that would happen which would eventually lead to God purposely made the devil turn against him because of [whatever reason].

so that means, God created rape, killings, war, shootings, and everything good too... WHICH means, God is GOOD AND EVIL. (i have a hard time personally believing that, but if my idea is true than it would have to be true)

remember, the KNOWLEDGE of decision would of had to be inputted into our minds, which TOTALLY contradicts FREE WILL in all its ESSENCE.


does it make sense?

express opinions please.




You are giving too much credit to god. you assume that religious texts say that he controls even minds. He is the forger of bodies and processes of life, not minds. Religious god is NOT the whole universe, he is not EVERYTHING, he is just a powerfull being


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineZephid
Stranger
Registered: 08/07/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507038 - 08/07/05 03:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The main problem with your argument is that you aren't?t including the effects of freewill in your examples. God did not necessarily give us knowledge of war, he gave freewill, which enabled us to discover it ourselves. He did not create only good in us, because the ability to be evil is part of freewill. God could have created a world with no evil, but it would have been a world without freewill


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OfflineJEDI
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 83
Last seen: 10 years, 14 days
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4507042 - 08/07/05 03:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

JEDI said:
ASSUME GOD EXISTS WHEN READING THIS (for you non-believers)

God created us with one gift; the gift of free will. God created the angels all with free will in the beginning. the Bible states that the devil turned against God. so that means, God would of had to of created the knowledge of "turning against" into the devil's mind in order for it to happen, right? so that would prove the Bible false that the devil didn't turn against God, God turned the devil against God. THATS one contradiction.

war. war was created by humans free will on earth right? according to the above topic, if it were true, God would of had to put the "KNOWLEDGE" of "WAR" into humans minds for it to happen. how would it ever be possible for war to exist without the knowledge of it first inputted into our minds? well, God had to of created the knowledge.

The second and last contradiction i have for you:

if God is good, and God created only good in us, why is their war, and rape, and killings, and shootings, if we were created good? well free will certaintly doesnt work than, if God put it into us. (but then it could of that we made the decisions to do those things). BUT, God had to of put the knowledge of decision in to choose things right? SO... that means God made us with NO free will, and that were slaves?

WELL............ MY conclusion is that God would of had to of created EVIL too. which means, the devil didnt create evil, and that brings us to the point that God created a storyline (in a sense) that would happen which would eventually lead to God purposely made the devil turn against him because of [whatever reason].

so that means, God created rape, killings, war, shootings, and everything good too... WHICH means, God is GOOD AND EVIL. (i have a hard time personally believing that, but if my idea is true than it would have to be true)

remember, the KNOWLEDGE of decision would of had to be inputted into our minds, which TOTALLY contradicts FREE WILL in all its ESSENCE.


does it make sense?

express opinions please.




You are giving too much credit to god. you assume that religious texts say that he controls even minds. He is the forger of bodies and processes of life, not minds. Religious god is NOT the whole universe, he is not EVERYTHING, he is just a powerfull being




your argument is highly valid. however, i believe that God is the creator of everything. i should of put assume that up their too, oh well.


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OfflineJEDI
Stranger
Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 83
Last seen: 10 years, 14 days
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: Zephid]
    #4507057 - 08/07/05 03:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Zephid said:
The main problem with your argument is that you aren't?t including the effects of freewill in your examples. God did not necessarily give us knowledge of war, he gave freewill, which enabled us to discover it ourselves. He did not create only good in us, because the ability to be evil is part of freewill. God could have created a world with no evil, but it would have been a world without freewill




i enjoy this one. time to think..

... well.. God could of created a world with no free will, and without evil, but if you think about it, if evil didnt exist, 1 of the 2 things would occur:

1) free will would be everything we choose as good (since evil doesnt exist). its still free will, but good. and humans would have no knowledge absolutely of evil, so its not like we are limited since knowledge is limited. SOOO.. that means God would of had to of created evil.

2) then we would be called slaves in essence. since we have no free will, were slaves.


Edited by JEDI (08/07/05 03:40 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: God and free will and a huge contradiction [Re: JEDI]
    #4507087 - 08/07/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

JEDI said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

JEDI said:
ASSUME GOD EXISTS WHEN READING THIS (for you non-believers)

God created us with one gift; the gift of free will. God created the angels all with free will in the beginning. the Bible states that the devil turned against God. so that means, God would of had to of created the knowledge of "turning against" into the devil's mind in order for it to happen, right? so that would prove the Bible false that the devil didn't turn against God, God turned the devil against God. THATS one contradiction.

war. war was created by humans free will on earth right? according to the above topic, if it were true, God would of had to put the "KNOWLEDGE" of "WAR" into humans minds for it to happen. how would it ever be possible for war to exist without the knowledge of it first inputted into our minds? well, God had to of created the knowledge.

The second and last contradiction i have for you:

if God is good, and God created only good in us, why is their war, and rape, and killings, and shootings, if we were created good? well free will certaintly doesnt work than, if God put it into us. (but then it could of that we made the decisions to do those things). BUT, God had to of put the knowledge of decision in to choose things right? SO... that means God made us with NO free will, and that were slaves?

WELL............ MY conclusion is that God would of had to of created EVIL too. which means, the devil didnt create evil, and that brings us to the point that God created a storyline (in a sense) that would happen which would eventually lead to God purposely made the devil turn against him because of [whatever reason].

so that means, God created rape, killings, war, shootings, and everything good too... WHICH means, God is GOOD AND EVIL. (i have a hard time personally believing that, but if my idea is true than it would have to be true)

remember, the KNOWLEDGE of decision would of had to be inputted into our minds, which TOTALLY contradicts FREE WILL in all its ESSENCE.


does it make sense?

express opinions please.




You are giving too much credit to god. you assume that religious texts say that he controls even minds. He is the forger of bodies and processes of life, not minds. Religious god is NOT the whole universe, he is not EVERYTHING, he is just a powerfull being




your argument is highly valid. however, i believe that God is the creator of everything. i should of put assume that up their too, oh well.




well you have a different idea of god, if you want to discuss the logic of biblical god, then you can't mix your own idea of god into it, you must simply examine the texts and extract the god that is described there.

One big argument for what I'm saying is that biblical god changes. When he sent Jesus, he was showing people a new philosophy.

super duper energies of the entire universe don't change their philosophy in a few 1000's of years.
The god from bible is a powerfull entity, but it is an individual separate entity. Like us only bigger and more powerfull.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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