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Offlineexclusive58
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Free Will and its Origin
    #4504347 - 08/06/05 06:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I had an interesting conversation with Annom at the euro gathering concerning free will and I thought it could maybe leak into S&P in order to explore the problem a bit further.

So if we look at it rationally, we live in a material world where all of our actions are a consequence of previous material causes. The cause and effect phenomena is the primary argument of those who think free will is bullshit. Indeed, how could we ever be free if what we do depends on what happens to us? Where is free will in a world where everything that happens is only but a reaction to an action?

If we look at it this way, it would mean that if there ever is free will, it would have to be there since the beginning, since the Big Bang. Today, scientists are able to retell the story of the Big Bang, starting from the first thousandth of a second, to today. I won't go in the details, but its amazing how far science has gone in order to try to explain this universe. The Big Bang is basically the result of microscopic to macroscopic chain reactions. But the problem is, when scientists try to figure out what first started this chain reaction and make sense of what caused the Big Bang in mathematical expressions, all their tools become useless and meaningless, the numbers just start going wild and incomprehensible. The same thing happens with black holes.

Therefore, I don't think we should give so much credit to the idea that everything is written and that our lives are just mechanized occurances that we don't really have control over. Although such a point of view has some positive sides, like not being emotionally attached to things and events and basically letting things go with the flow, I think it would be bad to disregard the possibility that our greatest gift may be free will and that we may be fully responsible for whatever we do and whatever happens to us.

After all, if consciousness comes from nature, wouldn't nature have consciousness? :wink:


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4504352 - 08/06/05 06:43 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe nature is consciousness.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: barfightlard]
    #4504370 - 08/06/05 06:54 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ya that's what i'm thinking..


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4504451 - 08/06/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I don't understand why the cause and effect relationship means there is no free will to some people. You are free to choose how you set the law into motion. I think once we get more of the multi dimensionality of the universe and ourselves figured out we will figure out how to break that law too. i think many already have and just don't realize it.

Science says the Big bang was a form of first cause. What if I choose to use the laws of cause and effect to making myself the starting point of first cause chain events from here on? What if with every new choice, I start at my own begining?

Or are nay Sayers going to say that it was predetermined that I would do that?

I think anyone who says free will choosing is not at our disposal is freaking lazy, can't accept responsibility and likes to place blame else where. In other words, the haven't figured out yet that they are their own first cause.

Said in a ditzy valley girl voice, "So like okaay, I have like, really bad credit cuz I love to shop and hate work, gross gag me with a spoon, so like now, I can't get a mortage for this bitchen loft and it's all the fault of the big bang. I mean like, predtermination is really screwing with me, like ya know?

Choose for yourself if you determine your life or if life determines it for you. Choose if you will make things happen or let things happen to you. How anyone can say we are not free to make random non sequential choices is beyond me.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4504561 - 08/06/05 08:06 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Science says the Big bang was a form of first cause. What if I choose to use the laws of cause and effect to making myself the starting point of first cause chain events from here on? What if with every new choice, I start at my own begining?

Or are nay Sayers going to say that it was predetermined that I would do that?




ya pretty much :wink:
because how would you be able to make a choice of your own beginning?
let's say you started drawing something. Wouldn't you draw something you have already seen or a mixture of things you've already seen?

Quote:

I think anyone who says free will choosing is not at our disposal is freaking lazy, can't accept responsibility and likes to place blame else where. In other words, they haven't figured out yet that they are their own first cause.




Well what is one's own first cause? It would be the big bang that created atoms that created cells that created a spermatozoid that created a baby coming out of another being's uterus. Those are our first causes, then comes society culture religion science, all of these things and more determine in one way or another how we behave and what we do.

I don't think you can really start talking about free will unless you start getting all spiritual (which isn't something very much appreciated here as you know :wink: ) and mention notions that as "Transcendance" or "Deprogrammation" or whatever you want to call it.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4504671 - 08/06/05 08:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Well, yes, you have to get spiritual and or philosophical about it and this is the spirituality/philosophy forum. Funny how spirituality is frowned upon in the spirituality forum.

I think we should go over to the science forum and start talking about religion, and bring peace and love into OTD. After all, it would be predetrmined that we were going to do that so they couldn't blame us personally for it or anything. They would have to ban the big bang.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4504678 - 08/06/05 08:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'm confused. If we can only be scientific about this, why didn't you post it in the science forum?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: barfightlard]
    #4504747 - 08/06/05 09:17 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe nature is consciousness.

Absolutely.

Nature rules, and our attempts to influence it will fall short in the long run.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineJEDI
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4505207 - 08/07/05 12:16 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

my opinion on free will is that we do have free will. we have the free will to create laws, to govern society, to break laws, to do anything. your saying we dont have free will but really we do, in a sense that the government makes the rules (their free will) and we can choose to change the rules (hard effort though) and/or break the rules.

in a philosophical sense. God created us as perfect beings. what perfect beings meant were we had perfect free will. that is our surpreme gift from our supreme God.


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506015 - 08/07/05 04:02 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Some food for thought... and not necessarily a conclusive remarque.


Just ask a smoker [cigarettes or pot, you pick] who desperately wants to use their "free will" and quit that f***ing habbit, but, alas, somehow... cannot.


Justification:  Well, that's the nature of a deep routed  addiction... They are just being weak about it.




:frown:


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Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4506277 - 08/07/05 08:47 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I'm confused. If we can only be scientific about this, why didn't you post it in the science forum?




I never said we could only be scientific about it, i just pointed out that from the point of view described in the first post, we could really only start talking about free wil by coming up with new spiritual/mystical notions.

But there is probably another perspective that lets us meditate on the existence of free will in different terms.

Now that i remember, Annom, who said he believed free will doesn't exist, also added that free will would be possible if something similar to going from dreaming to lucid dreaming happened to us in real conscious life. Thats kind of like a transcendance i guess.

And anyways, if we are only scientific about it, i showed that it is impossible to come to any conclusion with the actual mathematical tools we dispose of today.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4506993 - 08/07/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think many who live as if free will is what we have they do see and experience it in the context Annom considered for it too.

I am a free will er and yet I recognize how the chain of cause and effect works. I also experience the ability to break that fucker when I don't like it. I also use the law to set off my own chain effect reactions.

I see it like this. The law of cause and effect either uses you "experience life like you don't have free will" or you use it"do experience life with free will."

Breaking it does require some form of transcendental experience for sure. Something has to break through and let something new in to alter course. Of course when you break one chain, you start another.

Look at people caught up in repetitive patterns or addictions. They typically talk in victim hood terms and blame others and feel helpless and powerless. In a sense, they are living as prisoners of their will and are not free.

Maybe a big part of what happens during the transcendental experience is that one can see and realize themselves as first cause. With it, they feel the power they have to break free from something with.


Maybe a post that can get somewhere is one about how to enter transcendental states.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4507519 - 08/07/05 06:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe a big part of what happens during the transcendental experience is that one can see and realize themselves as first cause. With it, they feel the power they have to break free from something with.

:thumbup:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4510441 - 08/08/05 02:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This always is great stuff to think about. I had some nice conversations with you! Red pill or blue pill, hehehe...

I will elaborate my view on free will if I have the time and a clear mind! I have to smoke some weed with cybrbeast, gerardus and the douche now...  :grin:

I'll come back to this thread!


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: Annom]
    #4510520 - 08/08/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Our will is never free. We do (most of the time) have liberty to carry out our will.

We are forced into willing or not willing.....and when we have the freedom to carry out what we will then we have liberty.

So even though I don't agree with the term "free will" I still use it...just because.....it is used a lot.

What would be the difference to us in having free will....or the illusion of having free will?


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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: MJF]
    #4510655 - 08/08/05 04:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'm seeing a case where both are in play in an evolutionary way.


It's like the difference between being in the Matrix and being out of it.

You start off by following the program, then you break free from it and then move into becoming your own program designer.

If you can choose to follow the program or break free from it, then I ultimately think free will is in play.

Perhaps the evolution of consciousness is to begin with the pre recorded programming to give us some experience and then the idea was for us to ween ourselves from it and move into live tapings with the freedom to full on improve as we become more adept at developing our own material and comfortable with it.

Look at how instinct has been built in to help out the new comers. Instinct tells you what to do. I think it becomes transcended with intuition over time as we learn the ropes and get the hang of it. Intuition shows you some options and lets you decide.

Like Lucy leaving the trees.

Like a kid who is told what to wear. In time, they are shown options and get to choose for themselves.

The next phase of conscious evolution is becoming your own program or "clothing" designer. You are no longer moved around by instinct or given alternate options ideas through intuition. It's a blank slate and you color it with your own artists brush.

I think this is the path to liberation and conscious soverignity. The path of being the created to the becoming a creator.

I no longer see it as a case of arguning one over the other. I see one moving into the other and both are in play. :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: MJF]
    #4510980 - 08/08/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

We are forced into willing or not willing.....and when we have the freedom to carry out what we will then we have liberty.
[...]
What would be the difference to us in having free will....or the illusion of having free will?



To not only decide about the quantity ('on/off' or more/few), where it goes, but also about the quality (means 'direction').


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4511055 - 08/08/05 06:28 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think there's lots of truth in what you are saying.

What i personally remember from what i would call "transcendental" experiences, is that I enter a state of mind where external stimuli no longer affects my decisions, or rather they do, but these externl stimuli become part of me, because they come from the same conscious nature as myself. This way I become my own cause, I "break the chain" like you would say. And that is probably because there no longer is a separation between myself and everything else, everything becomes one.

that was very poorly xplained, sorry, i'm tired.


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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: exclusive58]
    #4511066 - 08/08/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

He he, it's late in France, isn't it? I understood it. I resonate with what you said describing while in that state that you are no longer effected by external stimuli.

It's like a systems override.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: Free Will and its Origin [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4512149 - 08/08/05 11:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Cause and effect needs infinity to work without free will. If there was a first cause and it didnt come from anything I would say that was the cause of free will (either randomness or god or whatever).


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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