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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501055 - 08/05/05 05:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It is like the difference between "real" money and "counterfeit" money. One has a mysterious government blessing, but zero intrinsic value. The other has no government blessing and zero instrinsic value.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Swami]
    #4501069 - 08/05/05 05:59 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

By my understanding the fake diamonds still have significantly more carbon and defects...the difference may be smaller but it is there. Personally I think diamonds have all of the charm of cut glass...colored stones are much prettier. My wife's personal favorite is amber.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4501082 - 08/05/05 06:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Amber was one of my favorites too, but she cheated on me with a co-worker. So..... I can't really say it's my favorite anymore, but we have become good friends again. :laugh:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4501103 - 08/05/05 06:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If you can't discern the difference without x-ray crystallography, does the difference really matter?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501138 - 08/05/05 06:17 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

in the case of the diamond, the difference is negligible.


However, in the case of the painting you seem to be overlooking something very important- artwork is not bought because of the picture presented- buyers of fine art want the original because it carries a story along with it. The artist worked on it in a specific time for a specific reason. It's ridiculous that a copy of, say, a Van Gogh would be worth more or just as much as the original- one was touched, cared for, and pondered over intensely by the artist ( i chose V for a reason ); the other carries the aesthetics of the original, but none of the real process or attachment.

You may find the difference negligible; but that would be only because you care for the end product and not the process or the artist.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501144 - 08/05/05 06:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Not to me because diamonds are boring.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Swami]
    #4501173 - 08/05/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
A company called Gemesis has nearly perfected the manufacture of synthetic diamonds. These are not Zirconiums nor cheap replications, but chemically identical to "natural" diamonds in structure, brilliance, density etc. The only way to tell the difference is using a very expensive machine such as a a Fourier transform infrared spectrometer. A jewler's loupe is useless for such differentiation.

Naturally, diamond industry is afraid - very afraid! Jef Van Royen, a senior scientist at the Diamond High Council the official representative of the diamond industry in Belgium says "If people really love each other, then they give each other the real stone," he says, during an interview at council headquarters on the Hoveniersstraat in Antwerp. "It is not a symbol of eternal love if it is something that was created last week." So goes the De Beers-backed line.

So here is the question for discussion, as there is NO DIFFERENCE in beauty, hardness, durability, etc. and the ONLY real difference lies in the mind of the purchaser, isn't it silly to pay more for an earth-created rather than a machine-created stone?

One pays more for a Mercedes than a Toyota because there are measurable and significant differences. In this case, the best jewelers in the world cannot tell the difference, without expensive testing; nevermind your best friend at a cocktail party or your fiance.

Note: Who says all my threads are repetitive and bring nothing new for discussion? :rolleyes:





Yes it is silly. There is a good solution to this:
make them all with machines, and sell some of them for a higher price and say they are natural. The customer would not really be robbed because he is getting the same thing, and at the same time his urge to pay more would be endulged


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineNuperSova
Stranger
Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 92
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4501174 - 08/05/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Diamonds don't make all that much of a difference to me. I'd rather wear the fakes, with conflict diamonds and such, so why bother? Of course other things are created inhumanely so to me it's whatever you can live with. Pick your poison.


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I Refuse To Say I'm Lost Just Because I Don't Know Where I Am

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: vampirism]
    #4501222 - 08/05/05 06:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buyers of fine art want the original because it carries a story along with it ... the other carries the aesthetics of the original, but none of the real process or attachment.

The forgery was painted by an accomplished expert imitating the master's technique with such fidelity that it cannot be distinguished from other original works of the master. That so accomplished an artist would undertake, and masterfully execute a forgery well enough to fool his peers is itself a fascinating story intimately involving the master whose work was imitated.

Remember, the forgery is an original work in the style of the master it imitates; it is not a copy of another work.

I see all the properties you ascribe significance in the original also in the forgery and don't understand why it would command a different price solely because of the revelation that it was made by someone other than represented.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501262 - 08/05/05 06:59 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

.. And that's why you're not an art collector.

The painting has no significance to the purported artist's life or work. Technique is unique and cannot be replicated outside of aesthetics. Most people will not be able to distinguish the difference, but it exists ( I could go into this further but it would take up way too much room for this )

Imagine if you were a Manet lover but hated Monet, and found out your original Manet was actually made by Monet. You now have a piece of Monet's life. Super. Just.. super.


Aside from which, yes such a story as you have presented would be very interesting. It would be a very interesting story to share--- but for the artist who copied it. Aside from which, I hope you don't mean technically accomplished, because the streets are littered with very capable artists who happen to have no passion, intelligence or creativity ( but then again, that contributes very significantly to their particular form of mastery ).


Quote:


I see all the properties you ascribe significance in the original also in the forgery and don't understand why it would command a different price solely because of the revelation that it was made by someone other than represented.




Again, the price is not based on the image, but the story and specific importance. If a Manet were identically copied by Monet, then this would be very, VERY strange. The price would likely go UP.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501268 - 08/05/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

There are two companies competing for the best process. I don't remember the details but one grows diamonds using plasma and the other uses extreme pressure. The one that uses plasma is discernible from "real" diamonds ONLY because the diamonds produced are too perfect, they lack the flaws found in "real" diamonds.

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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: newuser1492]
    #4501277 - 08/05/05 07:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'd personally prefer a flawless one. Hell, any imperfections created afterwards would be more significant to me + my significant other.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: vampirism]
    #4501287 - 08/05/05 07:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Technique is unique and cannot be replicated outside of aesthetics.

If this were so, the forgery would have been found on careful examination by experts. In fact, the forgery was found by actuaries following the work's paper trail instead.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501355 - 08/05/05 07:26 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

No, that's not what I meant, I was basically using shorthand. Sigh. im really tired now, so im still just going to outline an argument.


The aesthetics of a technique can be reproduced almost exactly, but the particulars cannot be reproduced in terms of their significance.

Some people paint very ... existentially. They might scrape down a significant portion of the painting without a moment's notice -- a part you may have thought perfect. Oftentimes, trace amounts of the underlying layers will be present in subtle ways- slight deformities in the canvas, impurity and chaos within something- whatever. You can copy these things, but never exactly.

This plays into the larger issue of the specificity of the medium and moment. Brushstrokes can be replicated for a similar effect- but never the exact brushstroke. The use of varnish ( esp. in Van Goghs ) isn't really predictable, nor are a multitude of other things.

All of this is just the specifics of the visible work- but then come the intuitive parts. If an indistinguishable copy were created and compared with the original, then you couldn't tell which was made first. However, the specifics of each painting would lend an.. essence of life to each. One may seem a little more nuerotic, for example. All in all, it would only take 3 things to make a visually indistinguishable copy:

1) Accurate drawing
2) Accurate imitation of technique
3) Accurate rendering of the overall expressiveness of the work


The thing I'm talking about, the minor qualitative aspects, would tie directly into the artist's story. Having the original hands you certainty- you can speculate on the specific mindfram of the artist, any emotions- whatever the hell you want.

Reproductions are good for a general analysis, a detailed one attempts not only to analyze the artwork, but to step into the unique, ephemral state of mind of the artist. Admittedly, in some cases, it will not really be an issue. It depends on the artist.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: vampirism]
    #4501417 - 08/05/05 07:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If an indistinguishable copy were created and compared with the original, then you couldn't tell which was made first. However, the specifics of each painting would lend an.. essence of life to each.

This sounds remarkably like the employment application where the applicant is asked if he can tell if a customer is upset even when they show no outward sign of being upset.

I don't buy that ESP is part of art appraisal. If an expert with in-depth familiarity with the master's work is unable to tell the difference, then there is no difference, and an accountant's paper trail doesn't change that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501464 - 08/05/05 08:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Not ESP, dammit. Besides which, are you aware people are trained to sniff out nervousness, even in the most miniscule amounts? A normal person would see no difference. See: Israeli airport security.


as for the art
If the original is present, you have an intimate gateway towards getting into someone else's mind. Saying art is limited to the overall qualitative aspects is just plain silly. The specifics point to hidden intuitive processes. Again, if you don't care about that, then there is no difference. If you do, then you realize that no one can successfully be someone else in art. They can strut around technically and look like the same thing, but it will have different meaning.


Not like you have to accept any of this for it to be true. I find it humorous that you should have to buy ESP as part of art appraisal. You're a curmudgeon now, making up ESP and refusing to buy my explanation because you could buy better, cheaper goods elsewhere.

as for
Quote:

If an expert with in-depth familiarity with the master's work is unable to tell the difference, then there is no difference




You just defeated your own argument because experts with such qualifications often disagree with each other.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501528 - 08/05/05 08:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If an expert with in-depth familiarity with the master's work is unable to tell the difference, then there is no difference, and an accountant's paper trail doesn't change that.



:thumbdown: Just because the expert is unable to tell doesn't change the fact that there is one original work of art and the rest are fakes. 

As to diamonds, if the average person can't tell the difference, and the cheap son of a bitch groom can't afford a month's pay, oh well.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: vampirism]
    #4501670 - 08/05/05 09:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Besides which, are you aware people are trained to sniff out nervousness, even in the most miniscule amounts?

If someone can sniff it, then there is a difference. My post goes to the case where nobody can tell the difference at all, in any way, though any means whatsoever, including sniffing.

Stop changing the thing we're talking about.

If no one can tell the difference, and even forensic analysis cannot tell the difference, then there is no difference. This ethereal concept you ascribe to the original and not to the fake cannot be defined, measured, or observed; therefor it does not exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (08/06/05 05:38 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501742 - 08/05/05 09:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Let's take this one step further.

First some background:

Subatomic particles of the same type are perfect copies of each other. Every proton in the universe, for example, is 100% identical to every other proton. Their individual quantum state can be different, but the protons themselves are all perfect copies of each other.

This isn't like two of the same Lego's; if you look closely enough, you will see that the two Lego's are very much alike, but have microscopic differences. In the case of subatomic particles, they are all the same in every way.

Now, if I make an atom-by-atom copy of a Picasso, would you still consider the copy (which is identical to the original down to the electron) of lesser value?

If so, can you type out the criteria you use to differentiate them. Just saying that the original is better (which is all you've been saying so far) isn't good enough; that's opinion and I'm not going to argue that.

I'd like to know why, other than 'because', one is better than the other.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Real vs. Synthetic Diamonds [Re: Diploid]
    #4501751 - 08/05/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Because picasso touched one with his brush. Thats the value right there.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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